Less Chatter, More Matter: The Communications Podcast

#166 How to make your communications effective (ft. Lisa Partridge)

• Season 1 • Episode 166

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As AI continues to reshape the communication landscape, one thing remains unchanged: the need to put humans at the centre of how we communicate.

In this episode of Less Chatter, More Matter, we welcome back Lisa Partridge, learning designer, facilitator and founder of Six Comms, to explore what truly makes communication effective in today’s workplace.

On this episode, we unpack Lisa’s Six Cs framework: Connection, Curiosity, Compassion, Clarity, Customisation and Consistency. This practical model offers a powerful way to move beyond common communication myths, like assuming that sending a message equals understanding, or that more communication is always better.

Lisa shares how communicators and leaders can build trust, create meaningful connections, and tailor their approach to cut through the noise of modern work environments that compete with AI, too. This conversation will give you the tools to communicate with greater impact, and stay effective in a world driven now by AI. 

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As the communication profession becomes more and more disrupted by AI, there's still a critical part of our jobs that these tools cannot take away, and that's our ability to put humans at the very centre of our thinking, our advice, and our strategy, which is why I wanted to welcome Singapore based communications professional. Lisa Partridge, back to the show. Lisa is a learning designer, facilitator and communication skills specialist originally from the uk. She founded six Comms in 2021 after 11 years at the British Council Professional Development Center. And she now supports professionals and teams in communicating effectively through her six Cs framework, which you're going to hear much more about in this episode. Lisa hosts the Six Comms podcast with 80 episodes featuring international guests and practical strategies to help listeners elevate their communication skills. She also leads monthly walk and talk sessions in Singapore's Nature Parks, where professionals explore ideas, build deeper connections, and engage in meaningful conversations. And you can go back and listen to the original episode we recorded with Lisa, where she talks through all of that walking and talking, and how that helps with communication. But in this episode, we are diving into the heart of what makes communication truly effective, and we explore Lisa's six C's framework. Lisa helps us to bust some of the most persistent myths in the workplace, including the dangerous assumption that simply sending the message means communication has actually occurred. She also challenges the more is better mentality, arguing that our current noisy digital landscape means that less is often more. Whether you are a leader trying to cut through the noise or a professional looking to build deeper trust within your team, this episode is going to give you the building blocks to transform how you show up as a communicator. So without further ado, here's Lisa. Lisa Patridge, welcome back to Less Chatter, More Matter. Hello. Lovely to be back. Yes, it's been a while. Uh, so for our listeners who haven't heard of you before that maybe haven't listened to your last episode with us; Who are you, what do you do? How did you come to develop your expertise in this space? Uh, yep. So I'm, I'm Lisa Partridge. I'm the founder of Six Comms. I started the business, uh, five years ago. I'm based in Singapore. Um, my background, I started off as a English language teacher and traveled the world doing that. And then, um. Had a business in London and then 16 years ago I found myself in Singapore because of my husband's job. And, um, ended up going into corporate training. So, um, doing lots and lots of workshops across industries and sectors, um, primarily... With Singapore Airlines and Marina Bay Sands and many different government agencies. And then COVID hit, um, I had a change of heart. I wanted to get out of organisation and I decided I wanted to start my own business. Um, and so I did. Five years ago, I took the leap. Yay. It's so exciting. So our businesses are about... The same age, Actually we had our fifth birthday last October. It was so, uh, I think COVID maybe have, has inspired a bit of change for everybody that we think was coming and I'm very okay with it. Um, so today we are talking, we're gonna talk about your six Cs framework because I think it's. A really great way to talk about what makes communication effective. But before we get to that, I'm interested to know your opinion. What are some of the common myths that you hear about communication, especially when it comes to internal comms? Okay, so a bit of a disclaimer. First of all, Mel, I actually cheated a little bit with this question and, um, I, I used the old chat GPT because I was just curious about what they thought, and so I just typed in what the top three myths. Um, about comms, especially internal comms. And actually, I agree with them, and this has been my experience personally and what I've heard. So number one, if you've sent the message, communication has happened. That's the as, that's the assumption. Okay? So I've sent the email, I've done my job, and everybody understands, but there's no checking of understanding. So, and they're totally gonna do what I say now. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And the action was clear. And I'm gonna expect a, an email within two days with everything that I've asked for. And of course that that isn't how communication works. If only it did, our life would be so much easier. Number two, more communication is better communication. So if I. If I've communicated across my WhatsApp, my Slack, my email, I've said it in a town hall, I've said it in a webinar, I've said it in the team meeting. All of that is gonna help, and my message is gonna be clearer, and as a result, um, action is going to be taken. Um, we live in a very noisy world, so just adding to that noise doesn't really help. So yeah. Second myth, more communication is better communication. Absolutely not. I'm very much of, less is more, um, especially now. And then the third one, communication is HR or The communication department's job only. Um, but we know for sure that it lives in day-to-day conversations, and it's not just through those what is deemed the official channels. So yeah, I thought chat GPT was quite accurate. They did a great job. And look, I'm sure there's probably lots of our listeners just sitting here nodding away, going, oh my God. Yes. I mean, a couple of things there. The, the more communication is... Is better communication. I hear that a lot. You know, people have been told, oh, just keep communicating. There's no such thing as over communication. Like, uh, yes there is. You know, people are getting hundreds of emails a day, hundreds of messages, and you are just adding to it. Like, how is that better? Yeah. And so, yeah, totally agree with that one. Uh, and what was your third one there? It was around, uh, communication is HR or Yeah, or the comms job only. And it's like everything that sends a message is a form of communication. So if you're a leader and you're not turning up on time to meetings or you're constantly canceling your one-on-ones with your staff or, um, you know, the values of the company, say one thing and you've put them out in your email dutifully, and then you are doing something else that sends a message, you know, like, oh yes, okay, we could preach about this forever. Yeah. Um, um, and I wanna get to some of the ways that we counteract some of those myths, but I, we'll cover that I think in your framework. But the next question I have is, I'm sure you and our listeners have seen plenty of engagement surveys in our time. And oftentimes what we see in these surveys is a question like, communication in our organisation is effective. And then you get the, you know, the response that. It's not effective, and that's when you hear things like, we need to communicate more. It's okay. No. Okay. Um, what do you think people are thinking of when they answer that question? Yeah, I mean, I always think it's good to start with yourself, so like, reflecting on your own experience. So what, what do I feel, um, is important when I think about effective communication? When I've been asked those questions previously, when I worked in organisations. So I, my starting point was there, but I think over the years, I've heard this from so many people, like ex-colleagues and people that I work with. So, and I've kind of done it in a, a bit of a like. Posing questions to myself. So like my first question that that straightaway popped into my mind and, and what the Six Cs framework is really fundamentally based on is have I really felt listened to? Hmm. In all of my day-to-day interactions, whether that be with my colleagues, whether that be with my manager or my leader, have I really felt heard and understood? Um, so that, that's the first one. Um, the second one, am I, am I clear and connected to the overall purpose and. How does my role fit into that and what am I expected to do and where are the boundaries within that? Like what is my role and what falls outside of my role? And more than that, am I clear in whose role that is within the team? Um, and are we all kind of. You know, rowing in the same direction. And, and, and I way even clear what direction that is. Yeah. Um, so that, that's kind of the second, second thing. Who's got the map? Yeah. Who's got the map and who's, who's keeping an eye on the compass? And if the compass is, is going wrong, is the direction going wrong? Who is steering us in the right, right way? Um, and then the last one, am I able to contribute? Do I feel safe to contribute? And am I able to do that easily with the style that I have, that I'm comfortable with? Um, and more importantly, that importantly than that is if I've given feedback at any point, whoever that might be to, have they really listened to that and has it been acted upon if it can be, and have I seen evidence of that? As a result. So, so those are the kind of things that I, I thought of personally. Yeah, I agree. Especially the listening piece. Uh, I think that is something that is really, I guess, underrated or that's probably not quite the word I'm looking for. Undervalued maybe in organisational comms. And I think also what I hear is. People feel uninformed, like something happens they didn't know about it and the reality is they probably got tens of millions of emails about it. Yeah. But it was, you know, was it actually communicated in a way that, like you were saying, meets their needs and it helps them digest that information and it's suitable for where they're at. You know, it's not just the channel, it's the context. Like if they're in a call centre and busy all day, the last thing they wanna do is then go, I'm just gonna go to read that intranet article. Or those 50 emails that came in while I was serving customers, like, it's not gonna happen. Yeah. So find other ways. So I guess this leads us then to the guts of your work, which is your six Cs framework. So let's talk through them. What's the first C? So I don't think you'll be surprised at this. Um, connection. Connection leads the way, so, you know, connecting beyond. Beyond that role, beyond that title, beyond that position that's written down. Um, it's about, you know, knowing that human, um, mm-hmm And knowing them, not just in the professional way, but also about their, their life, their needs, their priorities, what's going on in their individual context. So it's about that genuine, uh, connection with another. And what does that look like in communication? So. It means like not just, um, having the work conversations, having those in what I call the spaces in between the formal meetings, um, that's where the real connection happens. It's often very spontaneous. It's very, um, in the moment, it, it, it sometimes surprises you. You sometimes learn about somebody, um, that you've been working with for a long time, and it's only when someone's created a different space and you are interacting a different way that you actually find out something about them that you hadn't known before. And if we are not creating those spaces, then unfortunately that Real connecting tissue doesn't really get created or develops. Mm. So yeah, that's really important too, in a world where we are doing more hybrid work than ever before. More remote work. You've got AI coming in, obviously, and, and you know, filling some of the gaps in comms, but I think at the end of the day, humans creep, like we crave connection. That's part of what makes us human, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so it's an interesting place to start. So connection, filling the spaces in between. I like that. Yeah. Uh, what's your next C?? Yeah, so it, it actually, these, these first three come as a trio and they're, what I would say are the human centred approach of communication. So starting with connection, followed by its best friend, which is curiosity. Mm-hmm. So curiosity, um, being... encouraged and able to ask those open-ended non-judgmental questions. Um, and that's really what helps innovation and creativity to thrive. It's the what if not the worst case scenario, but the what if, what's the best that we can, you know, that can happen. Where can our imagination take us? And you know, as humans now in this AI driven world, we can't underestimate the power of our own imaginations. And if we are not creating spaces where those Open, nonjudgmental questions are safe to ask, then we can't get to the magical innovation and the imaginative ideas that people can have and that they can contribute. So connection and curiosity, they're, they're kind of best friends. If we don't have one, we can't have the other and vice versa. Mm-hmm. And that's really important too, in those performance driven or feedback conversations. Right. Being curious about the other person's mindset and why they may have done something the way they've done it or why, you know, all of a sudden their behaviour's a bit off, or rather than going in with that immediate judgment or, you know, you've done this wrong. Mm-hmm. It's actually that, that curiosity and like you say, having that connection that's built the trust foundation to be able to have those conversations because. If I don't trust you, I'm not gonna open up to you, and I'm not going to feel like I can be asked those curious questions too. Mm. Yeah. So the best friend. Yeah, the best friends, they hold onto each other. And then I suppose if you've got those right and you've really, you know, leveraged on those and really dialed them up, then as you say, when, when you've asked those questions and you know a little bit more about the context or maybe why that person isn't performing as well as they have done, then you can come in with the compassion. Um, because now you understand the context. Oh. So that's why they haven't been performing so well. Um, so what are the resources that I can, um, give to you in order for you to be able to meet this performance that I'm after? Um. What support can I give you? Um, and maybe the team can give you in this period, in this the context that you are in right now. Is it a time when perhaps we need to take some of your role away and, and distribute it to others? Um. That really is a compassionate act. So it's not just having the, the empathy is driven from the connection and the curiosity, but the compassion I kind of say is empathy on steroids. It's the, it's the actually making the action happen in order for that person to perform at their best, knowing the context that they're in. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. It's, again, a reminder. We're talking to humans, not robots, and humans have a lot going on. There's, yeah. Outside of work and you know. I don't know whether it's possible to really differentiate your work life from your home life, because it's always there. It's always bubbling away in the back of your mind, even when you're at work that there's other stuff going on. So I think I really like that word, compassion. So they're the first three? Yeah. Yeah. Where do we go next? So, so then we go to the strategic. Um, and so those are starting with. Uh, clarity. So going back to what, um, I said earlier about the myths. It's knowing the direction, it's knowing the why behind with what we are doing. So what is the goal here? What is the outcome that I would like to achieve? So that, that's the clarity piece. Um, and then that's. Followed closely by the customisation. So we said, you know, if we send a message, we think the communication has happened, but the customisation piece is about, okay, who am I sending this message to? What is my goal? So that, where's the clarity piece? What's the best channel for that? Is the best channel an email, or perhaps the best channel is getting people in a room, if that's possible, together in person. And then sharing the message there. What type of communication styles do my individuals or my team have? What's the primary communication style so that I can best decide what channel to use? So that's the customisation piece. Um, thinking about who your audience is and then tailoring it to suit that audience. And then the sixth and final C, um, that's part of that strategic approach is the consistency. So it's kind of saying, okay, the, this is what I want to do. This is why I want to do it. But how does what I say and maybe my nonverbals, how are they aligned so that it's consistent and that I can build trust? Um, because I'm sure your listeners will relate that I've been in organisations where the leader has. You know, said something lots and lots of good jargon words. Um, but actually in practice on the ground, I haven't seen much evidence in terms of behaviour that backs that up. So then my trust starts to be chipped away. And that's where you are gonna gonna have yet real, real problems. Yeah. And like all of this, I think comes back to trust, right? Like it's building, it's the building blocks of trust. Because you can't just say to somebody, trust me, and they will like, you can't, an organisation can't just say, trust us. Like it doesn't work that way. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. Why would I do otherwise? So it's almost like these are six building blocks that, you know, build that trust in different ways. Um, and it also sort of occurred to me, and I'm sure you do this, this, these six Cs can also act as a bit of a diagnostic. In a business from an internal comms even, I mean culture point of view really to go, okay, let's ask some questions within each one of these Cs and try and diagnose where it's falling short. Is that kind of how you use it? Yeah, yeah. As a diagnostic, I've actually got, um, a download that, that goes through. It's a bit of like a prompt, prompt question just for individuals to ask themselves. Um, you know, where, where may I, and, and I'm not. And I don't like, I, I don't think you like either, but I don't like that whole, everything fits in a box and you're gonna get a score and then that number is gonna translate to that and it's like a perfect fit. Nothing's like that in life. So this is really about looking at those sixes, asking a, a few insightful questions that just get you to reflect. And it might be, by the end of it, you'll say, actually. In terms of the human approach, I think I've got that. Okay. I think I'm doing a lot of connecting. I think I'm open and curious, and I think I've got some kind of, you know, I'm, I'm exhibiting compassion with my colleagues. Okay, that's fine. But maybe on the strategic. Mm. I'm not sure I really know, uh, how to customise those messages. Like I, I know my colleagues, but I'm not sure what communication channels To use and what's best, and maybe I've never asked that question in the first place. So it just gives you some prompts and it's saying maybe you need to dial up one or two of them. Maybe you're okay with some of them, maybe some of them you've been neglecting. So it, I'm very much about holistic communication and also mindful communication. Just, just checking in with yourself now and again to see, okay, this scene needs dialing up. In this context, um, maybe I'm okay with, with, with one of them. But if I have all six working together, that really offers something quite full and meaningful and can really transform, um, how I'm working within my team, but also how I'm showing up as an individual communicator. Yeah, it, it feels like there's, you know, 'cause obviously there's no one size fits all like we've talked about, but they, these six C's as a diagnostic can be applied at the macro level, like the organisational level. Mm-hmm. The team level and then the individual level. Yeah. So it means different things at different layers. And it might be working really well in this team over here, but in this team. Okay. Have one of those Cs ticking the books and the rest are an amber light or a red light. Like there's issues that need to be addressed here. It's, I love this idea is are we able to share your link to your download in this? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Love that. When you go into an organisation and you know, you share these six Cs, what kind of response do you typically get? Are people surprised by, you know, they think, oh, I've been doing really well, or. I've been trying really hard at that, but it's not working. Yeah, I think, I think it's a mix. I think, um, some people think, like, as I said, they, they resonate with some more than others or they think some are. Okay. Um. But even if they think some are okay, they might not be getting the results that they want. Um, so, so again, I, I think you are also of this belief that I think also it's a bit of experimentation as well. I mean, my whole entrepreneurship journey has been just one of complete experimentation. So, so I think that. When, when I speak to people, it, it, it's a great tangible way. I suppose any framework that you give gives a language to some of the issues that you might have been seeing, but you can't quite put into words. So when you give someone those six, um, clear words to attach those issues to, then they can start unpicking and unpacking what that looks like and then that, that helps. Okay. Yeah. So it is, it's always been about strategic. So, so that's where I need to, um, you know, spend more attention and time and energy. And when you're a busy leader and a manager, you, you don't have... Excesses of time and energy. So it's nice for someone external to come in and just put maybe a little name around that. Um, and, and I'm not saying, and my, I have my views of what that those sixes are, but within other organisations, they might come up with something very different. Um, of course. And then that's great because then they're starting to put language to their challenges within their context and their mission and and align to their values. Yeah, I think there's two things there. Like one is that, as you say, the common language that. Everybody can get around and understand, and whether that is your six Cs or they've taken them and morphed them into something that's more meaningful for them. Amazing. Like, do what you need to do to build that understanding. Um, but yeah, I think the other thing that springs to mind is around how we, uh, sometimes just need ex like, not experts, but just outside opinions. Mm-hmm. Because we get. I, I mean, I do it in my own business, let alone being, being in a corporate world where you are so busy and you're pulled in multiple directions. You've got all the baby birds are chirping at you like, feed me, feed me. Um, and so it's hard to see the wood for the trees. So sometimes you just need that other person to come in and that's all they're looking at. They've got that clear view. They're not biased, you know, in any way in terms of. Well in that context and to be able to just say, look, I think this might be the problem. Hmm. And sometimes it's so bleedingly obvious, but you just need somebody else to, to point it out to you. Yeah. And to name it. And, and then to work together to unpack what that is. And Okay, if we've identified it now, we can start to try and address it and, and, and overcome some of those, those barriers. Now I'm a big fan of recapping things, 'cause you know, you know, we have to repeat and repeat. So your six Cs as we've just talked through them, the first layer was the human layer or the people layer. So that was connection, curiosity, and compassion. And then the second layer was the strategic layer, which was clarity, customisation, and consistency. That is correct. Yeah. Very good. Build the trust. Uh, so one more question for you on this topic. Let's say we've got people who are brand new to comms or they really want to sort of, you know, up their game, they wanna improve their skills. And quickly, what would be your three top tips? Where could somebody start? Okay, so I've got three. The first one has become a bit of a. What would you say? A soundbite, a a phrase that I use when I'm, I'm facilitating workshops, make best friends with your Voice. And what that means is, is I encourage people to record their voice. And I know that sounds scary and uncomfortable, but I think as communicators, we should be aware of how our voice sounds and also practice. Even native English speakers should practice their voices like, you know, how am I coming across? Um, and with a trusted friend. You can voice note someone else. If it's, if there's something that's coming up that's really important, um, not everything, but if there's an important meeting or an appraisal, um, performance meeting, something that you really, really wanna take care and you want to be mindful that it's coming across in the most positive way, record your voice beforehand and send it to a trusted friend or colleague and, and get their feedback. Um, and, and have a dialogue. Have a dialogue, practice it. So my first one is Make best friends with your voice. Um, the second one is, um, I'm a big advocate for nature and going outside and moving, especially when you are having difficult or more challenging conversations. I think back to when I worked in organisation and what a difference it would've made if my line manager had taken me from the office. Into an outside space and we walked and we talked it all through. Mm-hmm. Um, so the second one would be if you have a question or a challenge or you're having a difficult conversation, I invite you to go outside, change the environment. It will give you a fresh perspective and it will open the mind, um, to being more curious and present. Um. And then the third one is, is get an accountability buddy. If there's something that you really want to improve on in terms of your communication, um, have that accountability buddy. Check in with them regularly. Um, Monday morning, every Monday morning for 30 minutes. I check in with my accountability buddy and I talked through what I wanted to work through the week before, and. And reflect with them, just some few simple questions. How did that previous week go? What, what was positive? What could be improved? What would you like to focus on for the next week? And just having that consistent, uh, accountability, that support, um, can make a massive difference. Yeah. And it's also, you know, we, we often come into these things, I think, with the best of intentions. I'm going to change this thing, I'm gonna work on this thing. But then, you know, life happens and I gotta put a fire out over here and it gets pushed to the back burner. Uh, so to have that, you know, you know, this check-in's coming up, I think that's a great idea because. You know, actually I have to do the work. I can't just keep putting, kicking the can down the road, which is often what happens. Yeah. I love what you said about the voice piece. We've gotten into a Sally Prosser who's just written a book called The Voice Print, and she said exactly the same thing. Um, you know, recording your voice and. Working on how you come across through your voice, but you not in a disparaging way. Like you know you have a voice, use it. It's your a powerful tool. I absolutely agree. Recording and hearing it back is a humbling experience. Yeah. It's like, oh, I say, uh, but it's not just the tone of your voice either, I think. Do you talk too far? Yeah. Do you use a lot of ums and ahs? Are you taking too, too much time to get to the point? Uh, I think those things, yeah, reflecting on that is really important. And the walkout side mean we've done a whole episode on this, but Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. Sometimes you just need to, I mean, think about the scenario, like you said, you've gotta have a challenging conversation. And you're sitting in a white stark room directly across from somebody and there's nowhere else to look like. That's actually not a very safe space, to have a conversation. Whereas when you're outside, there's other things to look at. You can still talk to each other, but not you have that stark. Staring kind of scenario. I remember talking to a friend of mine, her children are now young adults, but she said the only time they would really open up to her was in the car on the drive to and from school because they weren't looking directly at each other. Yeah. Having to look at the road. So, you know, um. But it was a finite time too. It was like, okay, it's 20 minutes. So that's when her children would really open up to her. And I almost feel like it's a similar scenario. Yeah. You've got a set amount of time. You don't have to stare at each other in the face. And I think you are right. Getting the movement going, you know this better than I do, is just get the blood pumping, get the oxygen, helps the thought process. Yeah. It just clears your mind and your, your thinking in a different. Way with clarity, with clarity of mind. Um, so yeah, I, I am a, you know, I am, there is a whole episode, as you said about this. A huge advocate of it. Yeah. And look to our listeners, if you haven't yet, go check out Lisa's work. She runs regular, uh, walk and talks with in Singapore where they unpick all sorts of things on those talks because like you say, there's so much research around this. It's really fascinating actually. All right. So Lisa, we are coming to that part of the episode where we ask our guests three questions, and you've already been on the show before, so I'm not gonna ask you the same three questions that we normally ask. So I've got three new ones for you. Ready for those? Okay. Yep. Let's do it. What is an unexpected or left of field way that you've learned a valuable lesson about communication? Right, so. Because I've run these walk and talks, I've, I've somehow become a community leader. Somebody called me that the other day and I was like, what? I don't, I don't feel like I am that title, but anyway, but what that has meant is I have to now, well, I don't have to, but I've chosen to have this WhatsApp community group, and what I've realised is that people are so engaged with WhatsApp polls. Yes, those I like. That's where I get like it's crickets the whole rest of the time. But when I whack a poll in there, everyone is like, you know, it's fastest fingers. It's incredible. So what has that taught me? Gamify engage like any gamification way If, if leaders are out there thinking, God, I can't get through to my team. Be more creative, come up with games, and then add in a bit of competitiveness with an incentive, and you're onto a winner. I'm telling you. I love that. And I also think it's just easy for people, right? Yeah. It's easy for people to have a say if we, if it's onerous and they're already busy, well, good luck. Yeah. But if it's a poll, that's a bit of fun. Like it's easy. It's just a click press a button. Yeah. Love that. Great, great answer. Okay. Uh, what is a book or podcast you'd love and would recommend to our listeners? Okay, so it's Speaking Human, the Hardest Conversations you'll have with yourself by Dr. Damini. And she was a guest on my podcast, actually. She's written this book and it's, it's really great, great prompt questions. So good for those that like journaling. Lovely journal questions in there. Yeah. I'm gonna have to add that to my pile of books that I'm gonna read. Uh, there's a few there. Yeah. Okay. Last question. If you could wave your magic wand and change one thing about communication at work, what would it be? Take more conversations for a walk outside and, and if you can't do that. Bring some nature indoors. Um, because there's so much research that that says, you know, just looking at green and bringing nature in as like an analogy or a metaphor, really helps open up those creative juices that we all have, we think we don't have, but we do have. Yeah, nature helps. Uh, I love that. You know, it's a catalyst for those kind of conversations. So, yeah. And I also think, you know, just find somewhere else in the office to go, like if it's, you know, 45 degrees outside and outside is not appealing. Yeah. Find a cafe, find, you know. Yeah. A nice spot in an air conditioned somewhere. Yeah. If you need to. And you would know that more than anybody being in Singapore. Yeah, exactly. So Lisa, if people want to find out more about you and your work, the Six Cs the walk and talks, what's the best way for them to do that? Um, I'm very active on LinkedIn, so Lisa Partridge, you'll find me there. Um, I have a website, six comms.org and, uh, Instagram, uh, Lisa, six comms. Uh, yeah, so brilliant. Yeah, we'll get everybody over there. We'll put all those links in the show notes as well. Lisa Partridge, thank you so much for being a guest again on Less Chatter, More Matter, absolute joy. Thank you for having me back. Thank you.