Less Chatter, More Matter: The Communications Podcast

#156 Leader Communications - Part 1: Adapting your comms style (ft. Prina Shah)

• Mel Loy • Season 1 • Episode 156

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One of the biggest myths in leadership is that once you get the title, people will automatically listen. They won’t, and it’s not because they’re difficult or disengaged but rather, because communication doesn’t work that way.

In the first episode of our brand new five-part series, we’re joined by leadership coach, author and podcast host Prina Shah to unpack one of the most overlooked leadership skills: adapting your communication style for your team.

Together, we explore why there is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all approach to communication, especially when you’re leading humans, not robots. We start with real-world examples from leadership journeys, including the challenges of new leaders, peer-to-leader transitions, managing people older than you, and why “that’s just how I communicate” is never a valid excuse.

You’ll hear practical strategies for understanding different communication preferences, using tools as guides (not labels), building trust through listening, and creating a shared “user manual” that helps teams work better together. The conversation also dives into context and why it’s critical for leaders to think of things like timing, environment and emotional load and why they matter just as much as the message itself.

So, get listening! 

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Hello, friend, and welcome to another episode of Less Chatter More Matter, the communications podcast. My name is Mel Loy and I'm recording this episode on the lands of the Yuggera and Turrbal people, here in Meanjin, Brisbane. And today I'm super excited to bring you the first of a five episode series with the very wonderful, very talented, and very smart Prina Shah. Now, if you don't know Prina, she has been a guest on the show a couple of times. But she's also super active on LinkedIn, so go give her a follow over there. She has her own podcast, which is Ways to Change the Workplace, and this episode will be cross posted onto there as well. She's also the author of the book Make Work Meaningful, How to Create a Culture That Leaves a Legacy. She is a renowned coach for teams and leaders. She's a trainer, she's a speaker, and she's just a wonderful human. And so we decided to team up for this five episode series to really break down some of the key elements of leadership communication. It's something that we both talk about a lot, and in this first episode, we are going to be talking about how to adapt your communication style for your team and why it is so important. Prina and I cover a lot of ground in this episode. You know, we talk about different types of communication styles, uh, examples of our own experiences and things that we've seen elsewhere and why this is just so important to get right. So without further ado, here's Prina. hi everybody, and welcome back to a brand new episode on two podcasts on

my podcast:

Less Chatter, More Matter. I'm Mel Loy. Hello. And I'm Prina Sha and my podcast is called Ways to Change the Workplace. Woo. And so Prina and I have decided to do a co-lab because we are just. You know, it's a bit fun. Let's combine our brains. I love the fact that you are the comms queen, and I can bring my leadership experience and we can marry the both a hundred percent. They go hand in hand so much, I think. Absolutely. Absolutely. And we both talk about these things on both of our shows. All the time. So we're doing a five episode series. Well, what's five episodes now? You never know. Could change. And it's all about the big five leadership communications challenges, uh, that we see all the time. And yeah, I'll bring my comms perspective. Prina's gonna bring her amazing leadership experience into the table as well. And we're going to delve quite deeply into these. Not just like what the challenge is, but most importantly, what are some of the ways to solve the challenges, because we are all going to face them. Uh, and today's topic is all about adapting your communication style for your team. Prina, do you wanna take things off? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Adapting your core style for your team. So Mel, I'm really glad that this is the first topic because I think this is something that a lot of leaders, especially when they're new leaders, don't even consider. Or if they're established leaders, they go back to old habits. Mm-hmm. It might be a refresher for some established leaders and the new leaders, you are gonna love this 'cause gosh, you're gonna get lots from it. Uh, Mel, tell me more about your thinking on adapting your comm style for your team. What do you come across? Yeah, so I think like you're saying, new leaders especially are not given the opportunity a lot of the time to actually build this skillset. You know, it's almost like you've got the title of a leader. You should just know what to do by osmosis. And we all know it doesn't work that way. And the fact is we're communicating with humans, not robots. So there is absolutely no one size fits all approach. Every single person is different. We all have different preferences for... How we give and receive information, how we learn, how we collaborate, all those sorts of things. So we actually really need to think if I really as a leader want to get my message to cut through, then I can't just imagine, you know, I've sent this email and everybody gets it. I have to actually tailor my communication for the different people on my team. Yeah. What do you think? A hundred percent. And I'll also add another caveat that Mel and I come from lived experience of this. Mm-hmm. So Mel has been, you know, an internal lead in the corporate world and so have I, Mel, I can give you a real life example if you want. Yeah, yeah, please do. Back in the day when I was managing many a Stressy HR team, I've got a really good idea of. One, one thing that really stuck out for me, so I was that leader who was, you know, yay, you're a wonderful technical expert. Let's promote you to be the manager of the whole, of the HR team. Oh my gosh. I went straight into the deep end. So even HR people, by the way, don't get training often in that higher leadership, uh, development and, you know, the people management side of things. Mm-hmm. So from a comms perspective, this, this really was a massive lesson for me.

So I was always:

Super excited, very enthusiastic. As you know, I have many an idea and you know, I'm on the phone to you often with many an idea and as are you with me. This was the same thing in the workplace. That's my personality. And I used to have, you know, like when you, when you have ideas, you have to write a business case when you're at certain level in your position to, uh, get them approved. So I had brilliant ideas and I used to, you know, write them up on a business case for my manager. Hand it to him, hand it to him very excitedly for approval, and he'd be like, no. And he just repeatedly killed me. Mel repeatedly killed me to the point where I just thought, this dude hates me. This is career Suicide. There's something off here. And then eventually I thought, okay, we really need to get to know about each other at a deeper level. And that's when we brought in someone, uh, a male type of person, a brilliant facilitator who was a specialist in comms. And this person got us within our team to work on a work style behavioural profiling tool, basically, but it was just a tool, okay. What that person did very cleverly in what I've started to do myself, you know, through my own work as well. Now, Mel, is to create a, a user manual of me from a comms perspective or even wider. So the example of this brilliant consultant that came in and gave us excellent skills, I learned that my manager was more kind of data focused in terms of when I communicated with him, he required it bullet points and data. Okay. Uh, whereas I'm like, yes, this happened, therefore I feel we should do this, therefore let's just freaking do it. It's kind of like what my business case is working. That's how I run my business. Me too, and it's doing pretty well. I was saying that it seems to be working but in the corporate world, that does not land, right? So you can't often go by gut feel. You have to have evidence based, blah, blah, blah, blah. Data stats, whatever, right? So I say, blah, blah, blah, blah, in jest, But it is very important when you're spending a lot of money on a lot of brilliant initiatives, right? So I learned all of this and I thought, right, I'm not gonna dampen my enthusiasm whatsoever. It's still gonna be there, but let's chuck some data into this next business case now. Okay. I learned that my manager really speaks that language. I still handed him that, uh, you know, the business case - approved. Approved, right? So I think. In summary, that lesson is, uh, learn each other's communication styles and really deep dive into it. And I don't think, Mel, that you can do it as a team. You can't do it on your own, and you definitely cannot do it as the leader because you've got that positional power. You need someone else. You need to step into the team and take your leadership hat off and join that conversation. And I'm telling you, that session just completely changed our working relationship as well as obviously getting my stuff approved. Yay. And look, I think, you know, you made a couple of really good points there. One is the leader can't be involved, like in terms of, they can't lead that because they also have a communication style. Yeah. They need to learn about themselves and the other people on the team as well. Uh, but the other thing is too, when you do tailor your comms, which is best practice anyway. You do get better results typically. And you know, I had a big learning moment, I think because I'd been so indoctrinated into corporate comms for so many years. The way I used to write for frontline teams, I, it's no wonder they ignored everything I said. Honestly. I look at it now and I'm like, why would they care about that? You know? Because I wasn't tailoring, I was taking it from the perspective of the business, not from their perspective. I wasn't thinking about not just. You know, their comm style, but also the context in which they work. So yes, if you are on the phone to customers all day, the last thing you want to do is go and read that intranet article. Like a, when are you gonna have time? B, you don't give a shit. So it, you know, that's something I had to learn as well, or unlearn and relearn how to be just a better communicator, not just with my team members as a leader, but. When communicating with other groups in the organization and really think about, well, what's their context when they engage with communication, if they're really tired, you know, we do a lot of work with aged care and community, um, services organisations. Yeah. At the end of a 12 hour shift, when you've been on your feet all day, you know, maybe somebody's been yelling, abuse at you all day. You're tired, you're cranky, and I'm, I send you an email saying we are delighted to introduce our new IT platform. Bow bow. That's, yeah. So yeah, it's, it's thinking about that context as well. And uh, you know, there's different, you talked about a tool that you worked, uh, that you used in that session as well. Yeah. There's loads of tools out there and I think it's important to realise, you know, they are just tools. None of them are, you know, scientifically. You know, rigorous. Really, it's how you use them is how you use that knowledge. That's all it is, right? That's it. It's giving you insights that can help you change. And one of the tools that I use, I know you know about my tool, it's a quiz and it's called the Communication Personality Type Quiz. I've done it and it's looking at three main domains, and one is. Are you more introverted or extroverted? So do you get your energy from being alone? Do you need time to process information so you're not just going to, you know, brainstorm in a team meeting doesn't work that way? Or are you more extroverted where you process out loud rather than asking a question, which is what I do, I just suck the oxygen outta the room. Uh, or, you know, you want to talk things out. And then the, the other domain is kind of your learning style. And I know that there's been loads of research about different. Learning styles, and it's been debunked and not debunked. But the reality is I think that you either are more visual or more auditory. And it doesn't mean you don't do both, but you probably probably have a preference. Yeah. For how you learn. And then the other piece to the pie. Is whether you are more a strategic or detailed thinker, and neither of those things are better than the other. It's just really where you get the most comfort. Do you really need to know the why to be more comfortable? Or do you need to know the what, the, when, the, how, the blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And when you put those three together, you come up with, well, this is kind of the way I prefer to work. But using a tool like that also helps others understand. And I really liked what you said about putting together your own little... Playbook about this is how I communicate. Can you tell me what's in that? Oh gosh. Yeah. So it's more than communication. So my style is, and that's in your own language. You're not using the tools, language you can use whatever, whatever tool you want to. So my style is in your own words. Um, what else do I write? So, um, the work I like is, you know, so my work style preferences are; the work that stresses me out is, I think that's really important to know.'cause you know. I'm not detailed focused as much as I have to do it, and I do do it as not my forte or it's not my preference. Uh, what else do I ask? So, uh, and then what's my comm style? I'm direct. I get to the point when you talk with me, I need you to blah, blah, blah. Okay? And then, uh, the things that stress me out at work are whatever they are. Yeah. When I get stressed, I need you to blah, blah, blah. So those are just some of the questions. I've got a load of other ones. My brain is not kicked in completely yet. Uh, but you know, you can really tailor them. So I just did this actually for a marketing and comms team. The irony, they work in this, this arena themselves, but they wanna better connect with each other as well, you know, so creating, I call it a user manual of me, or a playbook as you call it, is really important. But then don't just create that. Have it at your desk or put it on your wall or put it in your shared area, whatever it is, so that we remind each other of what our comms style are. So when I go and talk with Mel, I know I need to perhaps get to the point, or I need to elaborate more and ask Mel all about how we can, and then launch into whatever. And you know, all of us can adapt our com styles. Another caveat I give to all of this is I am more of a direct conversationalist male. Mm-hmm. But it doesn't give me the caveat to be a dickhead either. Uhhuh, so that's the other thing, right? So yes, you can obviously articulate what your style is, but you still have to tailor your style for other people, because we work with other people and that's the joy of work, right? Mm-hmm. So yeah, caveat there. Not to use it as a weapon as well. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or an excuse. Or an excuse. Exactly. That's just the way I am. Yeah, yeah. Uh, no, no, nah, no, no, no, no. And I think you make a really good point there. It's, yes, it helps other people, you know, to, to communicate better with you, but you've also gotta return the favour. Too right. You know, understand that some people just hate the small talk. That's okay. Yeah. It's fine. There's nothing wrong or right, except for when you're using it, as you say, as an excuse for being a dickhead. Yeah. Uh. And Yeah, we don't do that. We, we're not very good with people who are dickheads here in Australia. Uh, so, and I think the other thing too, if, if you are a leader and you're like, how do I get to this point? How do I actually understand what my people want? Well ask, like that's yes. Yeah. The first thing you should be doing in a new leadership role anyway is listening. Yeah. To your people. What's, what's, you know. What's keeping them up at night? What are their frustrations? What are they proud of? What are they working on right now that they think maybe we shouldn't be working on that? What are the things they're working on that they would like to do more of? But in that process, listening to 'em going, what would be the best way for us to communicate? Is it a one-on-one every fortnight, or is it a, you know, 15 minute catch up a couple of times a week? Like, I know, what does that look like? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm pinching our friendly Ann's wording. Go on a listening tour. Mm-hmm. Find out what it is. Ask all of those questions that Mel's just asked because, uh, I'm bringing in some leadership, you know, 1 0 1 now. So Tuckman stages of team development, you know, forming, storming, norming, all of that stuff at the beginning, when you are a brand new leader, or even when you are an established leader, find out where your team are at. They're, they're probably in different phases or individuals are actually in different phases of the forming, storming, norming, performing, um, cycle. And when you are a new leader, especially, all eyes are on you, right? And humans have a memory, like a frigging elephant. If there's any kind of. Untoward behaviour done towards us. We remember it. Do we not, Mel? Mm-hmm. Yeah. We we're good at holding a grudge. Yeah. Yeah. And especially a grudge against a leader because we've put our trust in them, you know, and they've got that positional power as well. So with power, with great power comes great responsibility, as the famous quote says, you know, so use it well as well. I think it's really important to do that. And I think there's something else you, you touched on there was... Around. Yeah. You do have this position of trust, but trust is earned. Yeah. Trust is something that doesn't just come with the leadership title. So when you are communicating to your team, you can't just say, I want us to do this now and I need you to do that now. No. When you are a new leader, particularly, you haven't earned the right yet. And part of that is what is known as the messenger effect. So the messenger effect is the psychological bias for our listeners who may not be aware. Where we tend to put more credence on who's delivering the message rather than what the message is. Mm-hmm. So you might have the same message delivered by two different people, but one person might be universally liked, one person might be universally loathed. Yeah. And the person who is universally liked well, people will listen to that message. Same message delivered by somebody else. People ignore it, they start to argue against it, all this sort of stuff. And it's because we are social creatures as humans. So you've gotta earn that trust so that if when the messenger effect happens, which it will, where to be human, is to be biased, that you are in the right position for that work. That those words to be taken seriously and to listen to. Um, there is absolutely no reason why somebody should listen to you just because you've been given a role title. No, and they're not gonna listen to you, by the way, as well, because that ain't gonna happen. So Mel, I know you're a multiple author, as am I. And... In your book, you talk at length about comms. One of the things I talk about, and we are, we're on the topic of trust. I've got a whole chapter on trust. Mm-hmm. And this is something that I know you have been researching at length for your own business and I have as well. Right. So. The know, like, and trust concept. You cannot just build trust immediately just because you've got that anointed title of manager or leader. No. So there's lots of marketing theories and marketing principles that I know Mel is well versed in and I've been learning a heap of for my own business. So first off, people need to know you. How are they gonna get to know you as a new leader or even an established leader if you need to build that connection and that trust? If trust is an issue within your, um, team, this is, this is a good formula. How do you get people to know you and then eventually after getting to know you, they might like you or respect you? That's what we ideally want, right? You don't have to be best mates, but at least there has to be some form of respect, and then eventually that leads to trust. Okay. Um, so I think a lot of leaders forget that concept as well. They just go straight to I'm the boss, therefore you should trust me. So know, like, and trust. How are people gonna know you? First off, which then leads to like all respect and then leads to trust. So remember that Anyone who's listening as well, I love that. Yeah, know, like, and trust is so critical. I think it's too, it depends on, well, it doesn't depend, but it shows up differently in terms of how you became a leader. So I've been, I've become a leader by. You know, applying for a job, going into a brand new company where the team had all worked together in various ways before, so they all knew each other. Yeah. Um, some of them were in manager positions and I was basically coming in above them and they had been at the business longer and all those sorts of things. So I was so cognisant of that, that you didn't want people to feel like, you know, all, you know, telling them to suck eggs and, you know, being really aware of, you know, as a peer coming in and, and essentially being a peer and coming in above. Yeah. And working with them tough. And when they all knew each other, they all knew how to work with each other. Um, that is, that was one scenario where it's like, okay, I've really gotta start off with the basics of know here. What they need to know me, they need to, then maybe they'll like me, I hope they like me. Um, and then they'll trust, hopefully they'll trust me. I'll earn their trust. Uh, but then I've also been a leader in a business where I've come up through the ranks. Yeah. And so I've known people already and that in a way was a little... pros and cons, right? Yeah. Um, pros being, well, they know you. They hopefully already trust you. They like you, they work with you. They know how to work with you. The cons of that is they might have a picture of who you are in that, in your mind. Yes. And if you shift out of that. Stereotype they've built around you. Yep. Then that can go sideways as well. It's because, you know, well, I thought we were friends or I, you know, I didn't realise that they would actually performance manage me, or those sorts of things that you've shifted out of what they know about you. Yeah. Um, and I'm sure you've seen all of that before too. Oh my gosh. I talk about it at length, so I talk about it as being the peer to leader. Mm-hmm. Or buddy to both. You choose your words, however you want to, uh, take that one. But I've been there and you clearly have been there as well. That is one of the hardest gigs as well. So you've gotta draw this new boundary as well. And how you communicate with your team is really important. A lot of people don't draw that boundary as well. Mel, that's the other tough thing. So I talk about, uh, this is about trust and respectful boundaries. So when that has been the case for me. You know, I've been friends with my colleagues on social media, be on LinkedIn, you know, like personal, personal social media. So whether it be Instagram, Facebook, that kind of stuff. So just using my own example. So when I have been, you know, uh, that peer to leader now I've had to have the conversation with my friends of saying, Hey, I'm gonna back off from a personal perspective. Uh, I still wanna respect you. I still like you. Mm-hmm. But sometimes I might have to have tough conversations with you, or sometimes I might just have to be different as a leader now, and for me to be the best leader that I can for you, I need to draw a boundary. Mm-hmm. That's it. And a lot of people don't do that. No. And that's when things get messy, you know? So, yeah. Yeah. It's another aspect of tailoring, right? Yeah. It's coaching. It's not just tailoring to the individual as a person, but the role. Yeah. As well. Yeah. And what's expected of you as a leader in that role? And it's not to say, I think this is the other thing people might struggle with too, when they tailor their communication is. Well, how do I tailor but still be genuine because we, we wax lyrical about being authentic and genuine. Yeah. And that's important because people do see through Oh yeah. The bullshit, right? We've all got pretty good BS radars. Yeah. You can still be you. You can still use the words you would normally use, the language you would normally use, you know, the humanity that you always bring. Absolutely. But you need to perhaps tailor how you are delivering that message, whether it be the channel, uh, you know, as you say, putting up, you know, having those boundaries or putting some lines in the sand Yep. To the person you're talking to. Absolutely. Mel, can I throw another one at you? So you're talking about Please do. This is a tough one 'cause I've been through it and I know many a person listening is gonna go through or going through it at the moment. So you've talked about becoming a peer to leader or body to boss. How about when you are the youngest person and you are the boss of many other people who are older than you? I've been through this. Have you? Absolutely. Yeah. And how do you deal with that from a comms perspective? I guess like my own personal experience was that it wasn't an issue, which was lovely. Um, because the people who were older than me. A) weren't interested in being leaders, so they were just quite happy somebody else was doing the job and they didn't have to, uh, but B) they, you know, one of them in particular said to me, oh, you know, it must have been really hard to come in and, and know that you were younger than everybody else. So they were very cognisant of it, which was great. But I have seen this before where you go, oh, she's only 20 something, what would she know? And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, and it's, then it's about... Showing. I think you have to be even more collaborative. You actually need to, yeah. Get people co-creating things with you, test their ideas and, and draw on the knowledge. It's actually, it's an amazing font of knowledge. Yeah. To go, look, I'm thinking about this. Have you tried this before? What did you, how did you experience that? Yeah. This is why I am thinking this. So not just asking for advice, which people love being asked for advice, by the way, if you ask them for advice, but. It's also then explaining your thought process behind it so you're not just coming up with shiny ideas because you're young and feeling great. You've actually got chops behind it as well. Because you know, I've met many people who have many degrees and they're not, honestly, they're not strategic thinkers. They're just doers. Yeah. So it doesn't matter. Age or you know, necessarily qualification, except if you're a doctor or somebody, please have a qualification. Yes. But that's alright. But. It's how do you demonstrate that you've got that thoughtful strategic thinking process and that you're willing to listen to other ideas. And that you are willing to listen! Okay, so taking myself back to, you know, really young leader, managing many, many very experienced, amazing, amazing people. I had the, oh shit, I've gotta prove myself. Whereas you take that out of your brain melon and you actually do that collaborative process rather than having to prove yourself. You're proving yourself in a beautiful other way anyway. Right. By listening. Mm-hmm. By really understanding and getting their knowledge and actually utilising the brilliance of your own team who have the experience. Right. So, yeah. Great. Yeah. They, there are a whole wealth of knowledge there, so let's, let's use them. Let's absolutely use them. Yeah. Now we have covered a lot of ground in tailoring. We have Let, maybe, let's like think about, okay. If I'm a leader today Yeah. And I'm listening to this conversation. Yeah. What are some of the key things I should take away from it? Okay. From my perspective, I really think you need to have a user manual of your whole team. I think that has really, honestly, when I've done it with teams, Mel, it has just changed the way that they work together. It's changed the way that they communicate together and the way that they adapt their styles. They actually naturally do it. Then, you know, that is, it's gorgeous. It's front of mind, then. Um, so if I was to drop that golden nugget, I'd say that would be that one. But then collaborative rather than having to prove yourself if you're a long, young leader. That was a gold moment for me as well. Um, and then I think the real importance about, and I haven't talked about this, Mel, but when you were talking, I was just thinking about my corporate days. I have had the opportunity to work with the best comms people. But that's only because I've shared my information internally. You know, when you have to work with internal comms, I've shared my information from just a plain English perspective, not HR. And I've worked with that person as a partner, as a collaborator, and we've done amazing things internally for our people as well. So I know you get lots of internal comms, people listening. I think that relationship that you have with your clients and really trying to understand the nuances, and you talked about, you know, um. If it's a call centre and they have to read that boring email, at the end of the day they ain't gonna read it. What, what other options do you have? Mm-hmm. Can you communicate? Can you go and talk to them? Can you give your managers a script to go and give them the heads up? There's so many other beautiful ways that you can work with your internal comms People who are so talented - use it. Yeah. And there they're often very understaffed as well. Yeah. You know, those teams have been cut and cut and cut over the years that I've worked in comms. Yeah. And you might have, you know, one client move. Just finished up working with massive organisation, thousands of people. They've got three internal comms people. No. Not cool. They're under the pump. So the more you can do to help them Yeah. Sometimes the better. Uh, so I totally, and I, I really love that aspect of tailoring too, that you just talked about in terms of your internal clients and your internal relationships. Think about what it is they might need. That you could support them with and make their lives easier, not harder. Um, one of the things I think you mentioned was the know, like, trust. Yeah. I think if you're a leader, think about that. What's that listening that you're going to do to get to know people and they get the opportunity to know you. Then how do you build the like and in a genuine way, and then the trust will come. Exactly. But don't expect to be trusted straight away. No. Make sure you've got a pair of listening ears on, and that's not just as the beginning. Throughout your entire leadership ongoing journey, you've got to listen. And the other thing is too, there are plenty of tools out there to help you understand each other's communication styles. Find one that might work for you. It's a great team building activity. It's something fun to do in team meetings or offsite or whatever as well. Uh, people love learning more about themselves, but also they then get to learn more about each other. And so there's lots of different tools out there, like we said. Just pick one. Doesn't matter. It could be disc, it could be the bird one. It could be. You know, the, uh, what's the other one? Myers Briggs. And there's so many of them. As I said, none of them are all terribly scientific by any means, but they do. It's a tool just help you get to know more about Yeah. What's going on. Use it as a tool for good. Boom. Exactly. Well Prina as always, I love chatting with you and you always the best Mel! So that's episode one of our five part series, which was. All about adapting your comm style. Next episode is, oh, it's a, it's a juicy one, giving and receiving feedback. So come on, bring it on. Prina, Love ya guts! Back at you. Love you too. Thank you, Mel.