Less Chatter, More Matter: The Communications Podcast

#134 Change communications pet peeves, and how to fix them (ft. Gilbert Kruidenier)

• Season 1 • Episode 134

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Change and communication work can be challenging, with shifting priorities, tight deadlines, and complex approvals creating frustration. 

Which is why on this episode of the Less Chatter, More Matter podcast, we sit down with Gilbert Kruidenier, organisational change expert, author, and volunteer firefighter, to explore common frustrations in change projects and practical ways to overcome them.

Gilbert shares insights from over 20 years of experience across industries including retail, government, aged care, and disability. He explains how to distinguish between change and communications roles, manage workloads, navigate approvals, and make messages clear, simple, and human. 

The conversation also touches on lessons from Gilbert’s book Bad Change and strategies for improving the way change is communicated. Overall, we go over some of the mammoth pet peeves that all change and/or comms folks have, and how we can navigate them in a world where change is the new norm, and comms has to communicate about it.

This episode is ideal if you're in change or communications and want practical ideas to make your work more effective and impactful.

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For those who work across communication and or change, maybe both. I know there are so many frustrations. From dealing with changing decisions to people, just changing your comms for the sake of it and everything in between, it is very rarely an easy ride. But you are in luck, my friend, because today help is at hand. On today's episode of the podcast, we are doing things a little differently. I interviewed my friend and amazing change manager, Gilbert Kruidenier, and we have shared some of our pet peeves, but also how to address these challenges. You will finish this podcast with a bunch of ideas you can try for yourself. But before we get into it, a little about Gilbert, he's an organisational change expert with more than 20 years of experience across retail, education, disability, and aged care, manufacturing and government. He's known as a trusted advisor and passionate advocate for transformation and change that people can actually see and experience for themselves. Gilbert's change approach combines practical tools, evidence-based practices, behavioural science, and crystal clear communication to deliver outcomes that matter to the people impacted by change. He's written a book about Bad Change, which he talks a little bit more about at the end of the episode and find out why that's so special. Please listen to that. Part of it, but he also has a Master's degree in organisational change and culture. A handful of other degrees in qualifications, including he tells me a chainsaw license. He has a national emergency medal and is an AICD company Director's graduate, and as part of his professional development, Gilbert teaches change at Deakin University and has been a long time volunteer for the Australian Change Days and Change Management Institute. When he's not changing minds and businesses. Gilbert is also a volunteer firefighter. Not only that, he's a fledgling karate practitioner, an enthusiastic litter picker, and a greyhound rescue volunteer. Gilbert is an incredibly insightful practitioner who is so very generous with his knowledge. So without further ado, let's get stuck into it. Here's Gilbert. Gilbert, welcome to Less Chatter, More Matter. Thank you. I am so excited to have you here because. Big fan of yours obviously, and all the great, uh, insights that you share on LinkedIn. And uh, also I really love your way of say it like it is. So I appreciate that as a fellow, uh, change in comms enthusiast. So today we are doing things a little bit differently, but before we get into that, can you tell our audience a little bit about you? What do you do? How did you come to develop your expertise in that space? So I've been working in the change field, um, for about 20 plus years now, and I always hesitate to call myself a communication professional because I know the difference. So well, I came to, uh, the change profession from a process improvement background. So I was always looking to cc processes, uh, often in industry, um, like technology or production or even, uh, the military. And after a while realised like, Hmm, there's a component missing, which is of course the people component. And I found that with words and images, you can get people on your side a lot easier than just trying to bash them with logic. So that's how I found my way to change and never looked back. Oh, brilliant. Well, I'm glad you did find your way to change, and speaking of which, that is what we are talking about today. So for our listeners, I reached out to Gilbert a couple months ago and said, let's do a podcast on our top pet peeves for change and comms. And Gilbert didn't just send me five, he sent me. What was it, a two page word document? There were 20. What was it that, that, Hahaha, so what we've done is chosen sort of just the top ones that we think I, I think, are probably the most common pet peeves. We're not just gonna whinge about it though. We are going to offer some of, uh, solutions and ideas for how to circumnavigate some of these challenges. So let's get into it. The first one was, when marketing and comms say no to your change comms. Gilbert, tell me why that's a pet peeve of yours. Um, because it is where corporate communications and real life people communications meet. Like there's a difference between what a brand needs to say to its clients and customers, and I get that. But then staff don't need all that additional, um, packaging. They already work there. They already know all this stuff. They don't need to be sold on the message. They said yes to a contract at some point, so I'm gonna assume that they know what the business is about. So that conflict. Uh, adds a lot of layers of unnecessary communication. Also makes you use words that are not very helpful when you want to communicate to people what is going to change for them, uh, for them to wait through. So you lose them in the first two minutes and you're like, but I had interesting and important things to say. And then people are just not there for it. And they, they recognise their own internal comms often and just go like, no thanks. I'm good tune. I'll, uh, I'll hear it somewhere else at the water cooler and then it's a missed opportunity. Yeah. And I also think, uh, the other challenge that I find is... Being on a project and having comms that you need to get out through those group internal channels. And the internal comms team just says, absolutely not. Yeah. And I've been on both sides of that. I get the arguments on both side, but I feel like that's something you've also experienced. Uh, yes, very much. And it's, um, it's often at the moment when you can least use it. And I always blame myself. I don't wanna get to the solution straight away, but it's go like, could've seen this coming because when is it ever different? But sometimes you get a completely wrong read of the room. You go like, oh no, they're, they're totally on board with this. And then when push comes to shove or go live comes near and they go like, no, we've got processes. You're like, oh, no. This is gonna take forever. Yeah. Feels. Okay. So let's talk about some potential workarounds or ways to solve this. What ideas do you have? Uh, well, I always try to play nice first, uh, get to know their processes because often they are very under the pump. Uh, they're, I, I once worked in an organisation of 16,000 people who had one and a half person for internal and external comms. So that gives you a good perspective of, okay, they're not just being unpleasant to me. Their life is just hard. So if I can work with them, know the style guide, know what the requirements are, don't come up with my own funny fonts that they can really not appreciate, even though whenever do you really need your own project fonts... I don't know, maybe if you're a visual designer or whatever, but in, in most projects, just stick with the, the, the normal things that people can say yes to. I try to look for a compromise sometimes. Like, if, if I do this, can you then do that? Most of them are willing to negotiate. If you show like, Hey, I've, I've done my homework. I'm not showing up with weird stuff. Uh, try to speak their language, try to fit their schedule as much as you can. But yeah, if all else fails, just escalate to your sponsor, because at some point you need to get some certain words out or they need to make sense in the project context. And if they don't know the word, they're go like, no, no, no. That's a complicated word. You're like, yeah, but it's not for clients. It's internal. And then they're like, well, it could go outside. Like that's true for everything. But yeah, that's, that's the worst case. Escalation. Definitely not my first option. Or even the second or the third. Try to walk a mile in their shoes and see how you go. Yeah, uh, totally agree. I like your focus there on curiosity, so kind of understanding where they're coming from is, is really key. And, uh, to your point, doing the homework, so, you know, not just going and saying, here's some comms, can you send it out? But saying things like addressing what their potential objections might be, really. So I've looked at the style guide. I've looked at what you normally send out. He, I've, you know, written in the way that you normally write this. Yep. It's within the word limit. It's got the review and approval of X, Y, Z. So you limit the amount of, uh, feedback you can get, I guess. Yes. The other thing that I think too is that there are workarounds, so, uh, go to like the C-suite. In general, find out what their normal comms are because often they have their own weekly emails out to their teams. They'll have a, a Viva Engage chat they're using, they might have a town hall coming up. You know, there are other ways other than group channels to get your comms out to the group. Absolutely. And I think you need to just sometimes have a little bit more of a creative outlook, um, and. Yeah. Involve the internal comms team in the planning so they don't feel like this is happening to them. And you're adding load. But getting their advice and making it as easy as possible for them. Yep. To address your request and build that relationship more importantly. I think that's what's key. I think so too. Okay. So that's the first one. That's a big one. Second one, when communications is blamed for bad change, tell us all about it, Gilbert. Um, it's, it's often the other way around when I was thinking about it, like, it's hardly ever that comms gets the blame. It's often change gets blamed for a disaster, and then it's like, well, and you didn't communicate. Um, I feel like comms often saves the change, if anything else, but if comms gets blamed for it, you have to make sure that you've got your schedules, that you've done your homework, that you said, look, I've created all this stuff that I wanted to send out, that I've used multiple channels. I, I was ready for this. And then you sat on your hands for a couple of weeks, so totally fine if you wanna blame me, but there's a little bit of blame to go around.'cause I, I'm never one of those people who just takes it lying down. If I've done something wrong, I'll admit it, that's fine. Mm-hmm. But it just doesn't happen that often with comms because you've got so much time and preparation, Often. I mean, if something has to go out like the next day, expectations should be a bit lower. And I try to manage them carefully. Like, well, I had to push this out in just two hours. So I don't know what sort of level you were expecting, but this is what I can do in two hours, and generally people are okay with that. So if you prepare and you explain to people how you got there, but don't make it sound like you're whinging or blaming everyone else aside from yourself, it's generally okay. But yeah, sometimes you just have to eat it. Mm. And I, I would go, my own thought on that is I would go back to that curiosity principle and ask questions like specifically. How could we have done this differently? So what is it that you see that was done incorrectly that could be done better next time or that didn't work this time? Because sometimes I think people in their frustration just do this broad brush. The change was badly managed, but when you actually start to dig into the specifics, it can bring them back a bit. It can be like, oh, actually. You know, it was a leadership issue. It was, this decision was made over here. It was, you know, so getting them to think more specifically and slow down their thinking processes. Yes. And use it more as a, okay, well how, how are we gonna improve on this? What can we learn so that moving forward we can not make those mistakes again and make it better? Um, and I think present the facts, right? Yep. Like, here's the data, here's what it's telling us about what worked, what didn't. You can't, well, I mean, I'd like to say you can't argue with the facts, but people argue with the facts all the time. Yeah. We've, we've now got alter alternative facts, right, where you could just like bring your own if you don't like the other ones. But I, I've had very good experience in this space where if you just showed 'em like, look, we had all this scheduled, and of course you have to do the work yourself. Like if you tell your steerco four weeks in advance, Hey, this is your schedule, this is how we want to do it, and they say yes to that. And then three weeks later, everyone's up in arms about the comms not working. Like, well, this was the plan. You had an opportunity to speak against it. So I, I tend to not get upset and take it personal because I know they're distracted. But at the same time, there's only so much you could do at the time that you have. Exactly. Especially when it's a poorly resourced change. Yes. Which brings us to the next one, which is when... People, whether it's C-suite, project managers, whoever it might be, confuse the role of a change manager and a communications manager. I'll hand over to you first. I feel like here, uh, we often don't help ourselves as change managers because we love to help people and then we say we can do everything. Uh, as I said at the very start, like I understand the difference between a change and a communications person... Often advise organisations that they should actually hire a comms person more than a change person because it will do them more good for the limited budget that they have. Hmm. Uh, but when you get expected to do both of them, and I've, I've been in those roles and it's, it's not impossible. It just depends on the scale of the project, because one human can only do so much work in a given timeframe, which is often a problem in a project, but if it happens, expectation management is the way to go. I very clearly step out like, these are all the things that need to happen. Um, 99% of the time clients really don't have an idea what a comms person actually does. So if you show it to them, you go like, like this is how long it actually takes. You walk them through it, and it doesn't have to be a detailed blow by blow, which you're like, it takes me about four hours to put this together from. Uh, start to to end, for example, a survey. They go like, oh yeah, and then you send it out. Yes. And then there's about 27 other steps that also need to follow. And when you show to them, they go like, yeah, that makes total sense. Thank you for clarifying that. Here's your 16 to 24 hours that you need. Instead of like, oh, well, okay, there's two hours that you, I'm sure you can send that out email by then. So it's really managing those expectations well, saying, look, this is a role for a comms person. This is a change person. They're not the same thing. And here's how they're different. So again, not not getting upset or getting annoyed with them because this is not their world. It's our world. We have a responsibility to explain it. Yeah, and I think I would say the same thing. It's uh, I do, I still get frustrated when I see roles that are advertised saying Change and comms manager. And I'm like, they are two different things. You're asking one person to do two jobs and that is the output you will get. Yes. That's the outcome you will get if that's what all you're willing to invest in. It is one person to cover two responsibilities, but that frustration needs to be tempered by people don't know what they don't know either. So you know, they see everybody else hiring change and comms managers, so off they go and hire a change and comms manager. Um, and so I think it's that education piece. Being really clear, like yes, they're both important, but they have different roles to play on a change project. They produce different things, they produce different outcomes, they work together, but they, they've got different skills. And I often say like, I have my change management qualifications, but I'm not a change manager and I don't want to be, I, I think what you guys do is amazing and I don't wanna touch it with a 10 foot pole. Fair enough. I'll stay in the comms lane. Um, but it is, and it, I think it's still making that case around. Well, if you get, if you, you know, poorly resource something, then. The chances are that the outcome won't be what you want it to be. You've got very high expectations, but what you need to reach those expectations is well above what you're willing to put in. So, guaranteed, yeah. Yeah. Something's gotta change. It's either the expectations change or the resourcing changes what's, you know, pick your poison, um, to a degree. Very true. Yeah. Um, how do you find people respond when you do say to them, look, I think it's, you need to think about this differently. Um, depending on who they are or how much time pressure they're on, generally they respond to it really well. Mm-hmm. Especially if you show them like, Hey, I've got 27 messages that need to go out to 15 different cohorts over the next two period. Uh, you talk to me about, um, communications overload, executive X, so this is what that looks like. If we do it, we we shouldn't do this. This is a bad idea.'cause people are not gonna pay attention. And then sometimes they come back and say like, oh yeah, but I've heard this thing about you need to communicate it five times. Yes, but not in five days. So that's, that's not how it's going to work so often, the voice of reason or to just step through them, and again, as, as we've just discussed already, like if you walk a mile in their, shoes you could go like, okay, so they don't actually know how this works. Mm. As if I would have to do something in a financial space if something related to accounting or payroll, I'd have to listen to the expert as well, because I, I wouldn't know how to do it right. I've, I've got this general idea, but I can't actually do the job instead of just understanding the job. I, I often find people are willing to listen. I guess it depends on how, how you, uh, put it in front of them. Hmm, that's true. And yeah, I think your point there around it, we do hire experts, listen to them. That's what they're there for. Yeah, I'm the same. I would not think about touching the accounting or finance side of things. That is not my jam. Uh, but getting the advice on that and, uh, I think just helping people to understand. You know, there, there are different models, there's different ways of doing things as well. And so it's not just an either or. It's, here's some options you can give back to them. So they still feel like they've got that sense of ownership and empowerment and choice over how they're resourcing their project. But you've a, you've helped them in making that decision by giving them different options Yep. To get to there. Um, now that leads us to our next one, which is when we underestimate the communications workload. Yeah. Um, let's talk about it. Let's be specific about we, because I never underestimated, I'm always the person who plans for it. And I literally, so last week, uh, there was a change management event, uh, which talked about the single view of change. And one of the three panel members had a very clear, and I, I was almost about to jump up and start applauding while she was still talking. Very clear line about work it out. Like make it to the detailed level of the task. How many hours do you need from the person doing the work, and how many hours do you need from the person receiving the work? And that's what I always do with comms and my stakeholders Steerco They love it. They could just like, so this is gonna take like 175 hours? Yes. And here's the step out for these 25 tasks and how long they take and why it takes so long. And you, you present it in an overview, right? You're not gonna write a 12 page report. No. Like, this is how this is going to work. They're like, that makes so much sense and honest. They've often not seen that before. They're like, oh no. Normally a consultancy X comes in and they just tell me like, this is what's going to happen. But so take them down to that level where they're still comfortable and overwhelmed, and then it just doesn't happen. Sometimes you get the conversation about can we maybe integrate a couple of messages? And then you have to explain to them, it's like, it's a different audience, different type of, of engagement, but sometimes they come up with really good suggestions and it often also sparks their own creativity. And it's like, oh, maybe if we could say it in a different way or could use it in this different forum. And this message could serve two purposes. So it's a little bit of education, capability building, and also information at the same time. So I, I think that's, that's the golden, uh, sort of path that you can take. And it's, it's never let me down. Oh, excellent. I'm glad to hear that. I've certainly, uh, done something similar, but I think the point we often have to make is this is best case scenario. So if leadership changes their decisions, if the scope of change changes, if, if, if. You know, these things can blow out. They can become much longer, they can be a lot more rework, all those sorts of things. Um, like I'm working on a project at the moment for a client and it was only meant to be a six month contract, and we're now almost a year and a half in. Yes. Because the change itself keeps changing. And so it is again, factoring in, I guess I call it factoring in a bit of fat into the proposal too, just saying, you know, if this changes and we have to rethink our whole approach to communication. Obviously that's more time and that's more effort. Yeah. Uh, and I think too, you, you touched on something there about different cohorts. It's helping leaders and project people, whoever they might be, understand that it's a, there's no one size fits all approach to communication. So we have to do the work to understand our audiences, what the change means for them, what it doesn't mean for them. So what changes, what's not, you know, what level of impact is it having, because that's a lot more effort. In terms of the change effort. Absolutely. Particularly communications and training. So yeah, I think it's just, as you say, it's the capability building. Yep. Which is so important more than ever. Now when I think about the workplace health and safety legislation that's come in in the last couple of years where poor change management has been listed as a psychosocial risk. And that's the other thing I've had to educate clients on is, did you know this is in this legislation now, so if you don't do this well. You are putting your business or your organisation - Yep. Individuals at risk. Uh, I don't know if you found that similar, that very much this seems lack of knowledge about it. Uh, yeah, absolutely. They, they may have read the headline and go like, oh, that, that's probably something that happens in the safety space. And I often bring it up, especially when you're in the risk side of the change, talk about it. And they're like, oh, and they're downplaying it because it's not something that I just throw out and go like, well, you need to know about this and this is the key priority. But especially when you've read the context of the organisation, you know that there are pinch points all over the place. You go like, this needs to be addressed because you're exposing yourself to risk. It's my responsibility to you as a Steerco member to explain how this might end. Mm-hmm. You are now legally obliged to do something about this, and if it comes to the fair work ombudsman, which sometimes happens, uh, you have to have answers to this. And right now you're not looking good. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think the other thing that's useful here is. Sharing examples of similar projects that you might have worked on in the past to say, you know, worked on this tech project, or whatever. This is a good example. This is a poor example, and this is how long that the comms effort took for both of those. And again, risk, risk. Risk is, you know, if you don't stay the track. Okay, the last one on our list today, endless consultation on your communication. AKA endless wordsmithing. Oh dear. Oh dear. Yeah, this, this is, this is a real pet peeve because it, I always liken it to, when I hire a professional to do something, like somebody needs to come and fix my water heater, I'm not gonna stand there and judge every tool that they pick up or have commentary while they're working. I'm gonna leave them alone and do their job because I simply don't know how to do it. And that that little bit of self-reflection, like, okay, I need to let this person do it, and I get it. People get hung up on words. People might have had bad experiences with words... There are a lot of words that I don't like, and some things you should just never say out loud, especially when communicating to people, but you need to be. Reasonable about it, even as a leader, like I, I had a person who would not allow the word insurer to come into like, okay, so what's the issue there? And they went on this 15 minute monologue explaining why that was a really bad word. Like, mate, you lost me at the second minute. I'm, I'm not even interested anymore. I'll just like write it all out because you can. But I often take the higher road here or the, the more constructive road and say, look, this is what it looks like with the words that you don't like in it, and this is what it would look like with the words that you suggested in it. Which one reads better and they often have to admit like, okay, I probably got a bit too involved here. And sometimes I, I even just escalate it to the Steerco and go like, why are we talking about words? Like, I don't know, but they're on your peer level, so maybe you can have a conversation with them. Because I'm not gonna debate if we're gonna use the word blue or green. That's just, I'm, I'm not there for it. Also, it, it leads to a cycle of unending wordsmithing where there's just no time for that.'cause it's just a waste of space. You're right. It's such a waste of time. Uh, I know from a comms perspective, and especially working in crisis comms, obviously. Mm-hmm. This happens a lot. The lawyers get involved the, um, and change everything to lawyer speak, which Yes. Is not English. Uh, and says, then, says nothing. Yes. Uh, or there's no HR jargon or there is, uh, a financial jargon that gets thrown in there as well. And I often. Come back to, okay, think about Maryanne, in the mail room. She doesn't care about any of this. All Maryanne wants to know is how does this impact me and when is it happening, and what do I have to do and why is it happening to me? That's it. She does not care about, we have the same conversations now. It's the same conversation almost weekly. Yes. Poor old Maryanne, in the mailroom gets pulled out a lot in my conversations. However, does she get that mail sorted? I don't know. Oh, well, I mean, it's all automated now, so I don't know what she's doing down there. But you know, it's, it's about going, let's go into your audience's shoes and. Remember that most, you know, it, uh, most people are only writing and reading to a 14-year-old level. So we've gotta strip out the jargon, the complexity. Keep it simple. Being simple is being smart because that's where you get people to actually understand what you're saying. They can't understand it, they're not going to do it, and they're definitely not gonna like you. Uh, so I think there's, that part of it is trying to get them into the, the frame of mind. Um, the other thing I think about too is that clarity on, well, what is your role as a reviewer? You know, is it, just check it for accuracy? Have I got the facts right? That's all I need to know. And sometimes I've only done this once or twice over the last 20 years because I've gotten to a point where people were just not getting the memo. I've actually locked the documents so they can't edit it. They can only leave comments. I understand. And I often ask for very specific feedback like, Hey, I'm not sure about the tone of voice. Can you read for that? Or just want a quick squiz around it for have I left any sort of embarrassing typos in, so I try to give them very clear instruction. Mm. And sometimes I'm, I'm just very blunt about just like, I don't want any of the words to change. These have already been approved by Steerco. I just need you to have a one over if you see anything of concern, and then leave it there. Otherwise, you just keep cycling. Yeah, and it, I think that's it. Be specific. I've, I put comments on different things saying, can you check this statistic? Can you check this thing? And that's all you need to do. I've made it simple for you. I've made it easy for you to do. I've also seen people use really structured like feedback forms as well, so you can only, reply in a certain way, which again, takes it to a next extreme. But if that's what you gotta do, it's totally what you gotta do. I think, yeah, that message needs to go out at some point. Yep, that's it. And so that you know, is that feedback, what do you want the feedback on? As you say, is it the words? Is it the content? Is it the tone of voice? Is it the facts? What is it? And be really clear. Okay. So we've covered off a lot today. So my question to you, Gilbert, what is top of mind right now for you as far as change and comms goes? What do you think is changing? What do you think is new or something that we should be interested in? Um, I'll answer that in two parts if I'm allowed. Mm-hmm. So what I'm seeing is that the value of communication gets understood more and more, which is really great. Uh, people are starting to understand in decision making roles, starting to understand that you can do a lot with words, especially with imagery, uh, combined with words that's really positive. Uh, slightly less optimistic about the introduction of AI generated words. Um, because people can still tell, and it is good material, but it's also very generic, and you need to give it a lot of context. So it doesn't actually save you that much time because, um, most companies have a certain style or a certain voice, especially if it's the same person writing these things. Um, we've then feel the decision makers then feel like every message can just be written in 15 minutes, not realising that they're often the time po the, the, the timekeeper or the, the, the gatekeeper, so to speak. Where you just have to wait for their approval and their way because an AI could turn it around 15 seconds and I've, I've seen stuff written by an AI that I use that is almost indistinguishable from my own writing where I go like, well, this is right. I'm moving in the right direction. But when I give it to an exec and they want to change the words because it doesn't quite feel right, there's still ways to go. So yes, I'm, I'm seeing them adjust more and, and see the value of, of communication within change management. But now the understanding is also going towards, or, well, the, the perception is going towards more, um, everyone could do this and that's just not true. Still not true. I don't know if it will ever be true, but communication takes a lot of time. It's an actual job. And just because we send emails doesn't necessarily mean that we're communicators. And I would put myself in that camp as well. I've got a lot to learn in that space still, but. It's um, sometimes quite shocking that people send out messages that still have the prompt for their AI in there. You're like, could have proof, read that a little bit better. Yeah, I agree. Um, one of the things that's top of my mind is very similar. You know, it, it doesn't matter what technology you use. AI. Before we had AI, we had some version of it. Really for years, we've had social media be introduced, we've had the internet be introduced, email be introduced. You know, things will keep changing. That's... Technology, it's always gonna change, but the audience is still human beings. Yes. And that's, to me is where comms and change people add so much value because it is that human centred view. We look at the comms that the AI produces and go, if I'm a human being on the other end of this, how would this make me feel? Yep. And that's the insights that it doesn't necessarily bring into it. You know, you can give it as some insights, but. You know, your audience and AI doesn't have a gut feel. Not yet. At least, no, not yet. Until it takes over the world. And there we go. All right, Gilbert, I've got three questions I ask every guest. Are you ready for those? I am. He is. All right. What's one of the best communication lessons you've ever learned, and how did it change the way you approach communication? Um, I would say ask more questions, always more questions than you think so you can then, this is the second part of it, acknowledge people's emotions, because those are the two major things that I always try to keep in mind when I'm communicating. As you just said, it's still about people changes as much about people as communication, so if you ask more questions and they'll go in with your assumption. Then acknowledge what people are actually feeling instead of trying to, uh, educate them in the moment. They're like, oh no, you're completely wrong. Just acknowledge it, because that's often what people are looking for. Just like, Hey, am I crazy here? Or am I actually seeing what's happening? And oftentimes they've got it right. And then you can just use words to explain to them, like, look, this is what you've told me. This is what I know about the change. Here you go. I found that helps a lot. Instead of going in with your assumptions in your script book, just listen to what people are saying and then adjust your story accordingly. And they'll feel acknowledged. Your message gets across and they'll walk away from that conversation thinking like finally someone who gets it and they're gonna tell five other people, so now they're doing your job for you. Yeah. Love that. It speaks back to, I feel like curiosity is one of your strongest traits and that piece around, uh, like you said, some people just wanna feel heard. They just wanna have a rant. They don't even want you to do anything with the information. Just wanna, he just wanna be heard, great. Get it out, and then they're happy they move on. Yes. Question number two, what is one thing you wish people would do more of or less of when communicating? Speak like a normal human would in communication. So, uh, if you're doing too much of the overly formal, uh, lawyer speak, I have much respect for lawyers because often when I get their letters go, like, I cannot improve on this, it makes me... really work for understanding what it says here, but there is no light between these sentences. I can't get any word in edgewise, but it, it often puts people off to go like, Ooh, these are lots of big words. So keep it simple, keep it short. Speak like normal humans would. I'd rather go out with three separate messages in quick succession than one, one and a half page message that people just go, like, I, I, I'm not gonna read this. And I have my own opinions about it. It's a completely different pod cast altogether, but we have to deal with the reality that's in front of them. So keep it simple. Speak like a normal human. Love it. Okay, next question. Who do you turn to for communication advice? Lots of places because I often need it. So I, I love reading books about it, uh, including your own and AI helps a lot, uh, where I just wanna do some quick checks. So I, I use them as, as a copywriter, um, helper. Um, fact checker, uh, copywriters themselves. I follow a lot of copywriters online because their content makes me laugh and their frustrations are my frustrations and they write really excellent books on this. And then last, but definitely not least, marketing campaigns on the radio online, because that language is language that connect. You might not always like it, you might not always agree with it, but there are people. Getting very well paid to come up with things that are just catchy, that uses word that connect to the right demographic. And they might get it wrong, but they're definitely better at it, at it than I am. So I, that's where I get all my inspiration. Well, Gilbert, thank you so much for joining us today. If people want to get in touch with you or learn more from you, what is the best way for them to do that? Best way is on LinkedIn because that's where I do most of my writing and, uh, community building, because that's a big thing that I do. So find me on LinkedIn, connect with me. Um, send me a message. Um, I generally am very responsive, so, uh, yeah, I I always love meeting new people and getting, uh, difficult questions is the highlight of my day, so go for it. And you also have a book that people can read. I love your book. It is full of amazing illustrations, really practical. Tell us more about it. Ah, yes. I always forget, right? So, uh, that's bad change that you're talking about. It's a 2022 production with my good friend Peter fan, where we came up with 50 ways that change doesn't work. And then, because as the format of this podcast was like, it's great to complain about things, but it's even better to offer solutions. So there's 266 steps on how to make things better. And as you said, it's very well illustrated by Peter. Uh, hopefully funny with the cartoons that are. Sometimes very painful, like real life. And to just give you the premier, uh, there is, uh, about to be a second book. Um, yes, it's 10 years of change writing, which I am putting the final touches on and will probably launch on my birthday the 9th of October. So there you go. Now people can just scam me online completely. You know, my birthday now. Uh, but, uh, yeah, that, that should be a lot of fun. Uh, it's almost done. Peter has done a couple of illustrations, slightly different format than that change, but, um, yeah, I hope that people will enjoy it because they keep telling me that they like my writing. So I thought, why not put it in the book? And all the proceeds from the sales go to a charity. Is that right? Always go to charity. Yes. Uh, because I and everyone who's ever written the book, and you included Mel, uh, know that you don't get rich off writing books. But, um, we have managed, because of all the collaborations that I've done with Peter over time, managed to put, I think now $30,000 by now towards, um, the National Homeless Collective. Who do a lot of great work for, uh, people in very difficult circumstances. So yeah, it's a, it's a great cause everybody wins when you buy the book. You support the charity, you get a few laughs and hopefully learn a couple of things too. Amazing. So many reasons to read the book and get in touch with you on LinkedIn. Gilbert, thank you so much for joining us today on Less Chatter, More Matter.. Absolutely. It was my pleasure. Thank you.