Less Chatter, More Matter: The Communications Podcast

#130 Storytelling to drive change for NFPs (ft. Gurpreet Bhatia)

• Season 1 • Episode 130

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In the crowded and competitive world of Not-For-Profits, how do you cut through the noise, move hearts, and inspire action?

In this powerful episode, we chat with Gurpreet Bhatia, Regional Communications Director for Asia at Heifer International, about the art and impact of storytelling in the nonprofit space. Gurpreet explains why storytelling is the soul of effective NFP communication and how real stories can drive funding, build connection, and spark meaningful transformation.

She shares her storytelling strategies, including a simple but powerful story arc, and talks through one incredible story of a woman whose life—and entire community—was transformed. The episode also explores the role of AI in comms, the importance of human-first language, and why empathy, dignity, and listening matter more than ever.

Whether you're in a lean comms team or just starting out in nonprofit storytelling, this episode will reignite your passion for the work we do.

Tune in now and learn how to tell stories that truly matter.

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There are so many nonprofits out there trying to get people's attention, and importantly trying to get their donations. So when you're strapped for cash time and people, how do you cut through the noise? How do you inspire people to donate and how do you demonstrate the impact of your work? The answer according to today's guest is storytelling. Gurpreet Bhatia is the regional Communications Director for Asia at Heifer International. I'll let you tell her. I'll let her tell you more about that organisation shortly, and trust me. It's a great one. She has more than 15 years experience in the development sector, driving impact through storytelling, advocacy, and partnerships. In her current role, she leads marketing, communications, and advocacy across diverse cultural and geographic context. Her work focuses on empowering rural communities, particularly women through sustainable agriculture, climate smart practices, and economic empowerment. She has held leadership roles with global organisations including Child Fund International, UNDP, BBC Media Action, the Union and Vital Strategies where she advanced communications and partnerships to support a range of causes. In today's episode, I picked Gurpeet's brains on how Heifer International is able to tell such brilliant, authentic stories and the impact of those narratives. She also shares loads of top tips in bringing stories to life, why it's so important for all audiences, and she shares one of her favourite stories, which totally gave me goosebumps. You don't wanna miss that. So without further ado, here's Gurpreet. Welcome to Less Chatter, More Matter. Thank you, Mel. I'm so honored to be part of this podcast with you today. I'm so excited to have you on the show. Uh, before we get stuck into the questions, tell us a little bit about you. What do you do and how did you come to develop your expertise in this space? Sure, Mel. Uh, so I think my, uh, the work that I do. You know, in the development sector has just not been, you know, a chance. It's been a very thought out sort of career trajectory that I took 15 years back. So before I started working in the development sector, I was actually, uh, working as a fashion designer. So I'm, uh, by the way, a trained designer, and I worked about five, six years with both national and international designers, and I owned my own fashion brand as well here in Delhi. While I was doing incredibly well as a designer in the middle of all the glitz and glamor, one of the things that I missed the most was the purpose. Mm-hmm. And in search of that, I think I took this real, uh, you know, risk of changing my career. From the fashion industry to the development sector. Uh, and, uh, I think, uh, I've not been complaining because I got what I exactly was looking at. It was a huge risk at the time when I did that, uh, because it was new and, you know, uh, it sort of presented to me the paradox that I was absolutely unaware of. You know, me coming from. A kind of a privileged background, uh, to coming face to face with, you know, some of these complex and challenging situations that our communities are, you know, uh, under, especially in India. So I actually began my development journey with an organisation called BBC Media. Which is a development arm of the BBC World Service Trust. Hmm. And at the time the organisations were organisation was working to respond to, you know, the challenges that women faced during their pregnancy. And, uh, and you know, I was absolutely unaware of what's happening in the parallel world where I exist. So I think, uh, that's what really led me to development communications for the first time, where I understood why and how communications can play a catalyst role in responding to some of these really, you know, tough and challenging, uh, you know, issues that people are facing, not just maternal and child health, but poverty, hunger. Uh, climate change, for example. So, so I think this is what I have been doing. And quite frankly, like I said, uh, even though I do have a master's in social work and mass communications in journalism, most of what I have learned is on job. And each day of my work, you know, comes up with a new challenge, with new excitement because we are working directly with people and no two days are same. And no two challenges are also same. So our response to each day and each challenge has to be improvised on the, on the way that, you know, uh, and how much time we have. Ha we have to respond to that, et cetera. So I think here I am, even after 15 years of work in the development sector, I'm still curious, still learning, still terribly caffeinated. But still convinced that communications can play a catalyst role to respond to world challenges. I think that's brilliant. And I think, uh, something you touched on there was that skill of adaptability that as comms pros, we have to have, because as you say, no two days at the same things come out of left field all the time and blow up our beautiful plans. So it's one of those skills if you haven't, if you're not adaptable, you're gonna find. Comms in any sector, I think very challenging. Uh, so thank you for sharing that experience with us. For those of you, for our listeners who don't know of Heifer International, which is where you work now, can you explain what the organisation is and who supports it? Absolutely. Uh, but before I begin to talk about heifer, let me narrate a very small but real story with you, and I'd like to take you back to 1938 where a farmer and a relief worker. Called Dan West was supporting families in need during the Spanish Civil War. So what he exactly was doing, he was distributing, uh, you know, food kits to the families in need in the relief camp that he was supporting. And at one point he ran out of for milk camps and he still saw a long queue of people who were wanting to have those milk cans. And, you know, that's when he realized that what he was doing at the moment, you know, distributing food kits. Would only give them a temporary relief, but has, you know, but it is really not a permanent solution or even a sustainable solutions to the problems that people were facing at the time. And that's when he had a kind of an epiphany and he thought of a concept called, not a cup of milk, but a cow. And, you know, that sort of brought into, you know, him. Beginning to distribute livestock to families in need, which would not only, you know, sort of satiate their temporary, uh, hunger, but also build, help them build small businesses. And that led to the founding of Heifer International way back in 1944. And what began as a simple idea of distributing livestock eight years back. Has now become a global movement. And just to also sort of, uh, highlight that this distribution of livestock, uh, now is known as passing on the gifts, uh, tradition that we still live by. And, you know, there's a promise that we make with the families who we distribute these livestocks too, is that the first offspring of, you know, their animal will be passed on to the family, In need in the same community. So this kind of creates a ripple effect, you know, of transformation, of transforming the entire communities. But since then, you know, it's been 80 years and each decade our organisation kept on transforming, right? So we are just not an organisation that's distributing livestocks. But now we have evolved into an organisation that's transforming food systems. And supporting, uh, small holder farmers, especially women and youth in not just surviving, but thriving. And we do this by, you know, uh, helping farmers build their, uh, successful agribusinesses, strengthening foods chains, forming self-help groups and cooperatives. We also ensure that they gain access to finance, access to fair markets, access to tools, resources, et cetera. I personally work in Asia, and Asia has four project offices, one in India, uh, Cambodia, Bangladesh, and Nepal. And in all the four country offices, uh, you know, we are working with small holder farmers, primarily women farmers, and really sort of building up their agency, giving them confidence and also tools and resources to build their agribusinesses. So this is a little bit about what Heifer does and up until now. We have supported about 52 million, you know, small holder farmers. Wow. And we are currently working in 19 countries across Asia, Africa, and Americas. That's incredible. That's such a proud story to tell too, isn't it? About that impact that's in incredible and, and 19 countries. And I know that you've to, you know, it's a com competitive sector, the nonprofit sector, right. There's everybody's trying to get people. To give them money, give them to support of some kind, to support the programs that that you run. And so I know you've really taken to the power of storytelling. Can you just tell me why you decide to put so much of your time and resources into that strategy as opposed to something like traditional media campaigns or advertising? Absolutely. Uh, so Mel, I just wanted to highlight here for us in the development sector. Uh, storytelling is just not another strategy, right? It is the very soul of the work that we do with our communities because we are working with people and as opposed to a corporate sector that's selling, you know, products, we are working with real people who breathe, right, who feel so for us, uh, it, uh, you know, storytelling is the soul of our work. And especially with the, uh, you know, international notfor not-for-profits like Heifer International. Like I said, we are tackling some of world's toughest and most challenging issues. Uh, you know, be it, you know, and we are at the front lines of these conflicts, be it the pandemic, uh, the wars or the national disasters. We are actually responding to these issues real time with real people being impacted. So I think, um, storytelling becomes more powerful when we are responding to, you know, such issues. Mm-hmm. And, uh, besides, you know, for us, why do we focus on storytelling? And like you said, this sector has become overly competitive over the years. Uh, but storytelling for us also, you know, uh, becomes like a catalyst for, uh, raising fund. To really sort of continue our mission of ending hunger and poverty while caring for the earth. And, uh, we have come to understand that, uh, to move people, to take or inspire them into action. Just plain numbers or stats won't work. You'll have to substantiate it with, you know, putting out some, uh, you know, real emotions into what we are trying to do and what we are trying to impact. Right? So storytelling really sort of. Uh, gives us a ground, like a, uh, fertile ground for just that. And also, you know, when we talk about, when we talk to our donors in terms of how their money is being impacting, you know, gifting a family, a goat or giving them, giving a group of people alone is actually transforming their lives and the communities around them just makes so much of a difference, right. So I think, uh, for us, storytelling, uh, plays a pivotal role and not just individual donors. We also work with a lot of institutional donors, right? And when we think of them, for them as well, it's not just the quantitative evidence that they need in terms of the numbers. They also need it to be qualitatively, uh, you know, backed with the real, uh, stories or the real, uh, you know. Anecdotes of people that have, you know, sort of made use of the resources that we have given them and how it has changed their life. And I've been personally fortunate to be, you know, part of some of these, uh, storytelling expeditions where I've traveled to the field, met these people, and really felt, uh, you know, their, uh, change and their happiness and the impact that we've made. And that made so much of a difference to the passion that I work with. You know, in this sector and personally, we sit with the farmers and we don't force any narrative to them. We just sit and listen and, you know, uh, in no time they start opening up, uh, to us. They show up their vulnerabilities, their insecurities, et cetera. Yeah, I absolutely agree. And actually something, uh, you talked about there, just tweaked in my mind. Um, the Frameworks Institute, which is run out of the US and the UK, have done a lot of work around stories. And there used to be this, uh, I guess. Positioning of stories in the, in the nonprofit sector that were very tragic, you know, or this poor person is starving and rah, rah, rah. But actually it's the stories of the positive impact and the growth and those strengths-based narratives that not only lift up the people who are in those stories, but act, get more cut through. Is that something you found as well? Absolutely. And you know, I've always been an advocate of... Not really selling poverty p*rn, so to say, but really selling hope and really selling transformation. Right? You know, a person may be in the deepest, uh, you know, uh, challenge, but they have the power to get over it. All you have to do is to give them a little support, a little backing, right? And then they're all their own and they show. You know, amazing, inspiring transformation in no time. All you need to tell, uh, you know, the communities that we are working with is that you can do it. We trust you. Go ahead. We are there to back you. And, you know, all of it is what they do. And ultimately you have to exit, you know, your program sites at one point or the other. But at Heifer, what is so beautiful is that we create sustainable change. We actually start building, you know, wherever we start our program, we start by building this social capital. Through our, you know, we have a cornerstone training for just in sustainable development where we start giving them training about mutual trust, accountability, et cetera. And that just sort of sets the context, right, and we start introducing our interventions only after we have brought the communities at a level where they have the understanding of why they're doing what they're doing. And why it is important for them. So I think, uh, for us, the stories are of hope, of success, of, you know, of interest to people. And it, you know, while we do begin with the challenge, but we quickly take a turn and bring in all the positive, uh, feeling about it. And we want, you know, I've seen people to root for our farmers, you know, as if it's their own story, as if they've connected it as, you know, as. If I was her, if I was him, kind of a thing. So I have seen that and that's where, you know, the transformation happened and the people are inspired to help them even more. Mm. I love that. And as you said, it taps into that empathy piece, right? That human connection. Um, I'm really interested, what has been your favourite story to capture so far, and why is it your favourite? Oh my God, Mel, I've been so fortunate to work with. With the, with the communities directly for all of this while, and there's so many people that have touched my heart and, you know, in turn changed me as a person as well over the years. So it'd be very difficult to choose one story. But I can tell you of the one women that I just very recently engaged with. So this woman is called, Tulsi Thapa, she's from Nepal and currently she is leading, uh. A women only cooperative called women, a Bihani women cooperative in Nepal, but her life didn't start that way. She was born into a poor family in Nepal. Her father was a farmer. She was married very young, and then her husband was also a sub subsistence farmer. Farmer, right? Her means were limited. Her opportunities were limited in her village. And then she joined a self-help group that was formed by Heifer in her community, and with a very little help of about 500 rupees. She started to build a poultry business of her own with such limited money. And, but that was the beginning of her entrepreneurial journey. And then she'd never look back. And today I'm so honored and proud to say that this woman who had come with such meager means and opportunities is leading a cooperative of about 1400 women. And this cooperative is actually leading very successful dairy business. They're, you know, giving out insurances, credit, you know, a very formal cooperative enterprise is what she's, uh, running and this life that she has changed is just not for herself, but for many other women in her community. So this is something that touched me and we engaged recently with her for our, uh, seeding Strength Empowering Pharma cooperative campaign that we've launched in Asia. To commemorate the International Year of Cooperative 2025. That's where I met her. That's where I heard her story. And I think it's just, you know, uh, it just makes me feel that, you know, there's change is possible. Even one person can, you know, begin that ripple effect and it can just spread, you know, it, it can have a snow ball effect. Uh, you know, if your intent is correct. I think change is possible. Oh, you've just given me goosebumps, Gurpeet. Just that, that, uh, as you say, that butterfly effect one little workshop and to fast forward to leading a coperative of a 1400 women, I mean, that's incredible. Thank you for sharing that story. And if there's any information you can share about her cooperative, we will share that with our listeners as well in the show notes. So I guess, you know, what impact have you seen from the stories you're told? So I, you know, we often come, uh, up against executives who are like, what's the return on this investment? Right? Because storytelling isn't always cheap and cheerful, as you say. You've got to, to do it well, you've gotta travel to where the stories are. So what's, how do you make sure that you're getting that impact and how you get that return? Uh, for me, I think I feel the return on investment on, you know, uh, storytelling is actually huge and it shows up in both measurable ways and in deeply human ways. So I'll give you a few example. For example, our stories. Our engaging our target audiences. And when I say our target audiences is it's our donor bases, our partner organisations, uh, you know, uh, citizens, uh, in the countries that we are working. They're not only touching them, they're also making our work more relatable, more credible, and more human right. And this has directly supported our fundraising efforts, like I said, helped us build our strategic partnership. With other big organisations. And I've also brought in, uh, visibility and trust to the work that we are doing in the communities, right? It has also strengthened our brand and marketing efforts, right? So allowing us to position our mission more credibly like we want to, uh, you know, we want to end hunger and poverty while caring for the earth. And this statement can't just be a statement. It has to be backed up by the real work that we are doing on ground, and that only, you know, comes out through storytelling. I also wanted to, uh, bring out a point here where, you know, this impact is just not external, limited to branding, marketing, fundraising. Uh, we also have to understand how it is impacting the people that are working within our organisation, right? Because ultimately, they're the ones who are, you know, every day waking up, jumping onto their bed. To with a purpose in mind, right? So these stories also help them connect with our mission, connect with the purpose, and really continue the good work that they're doing with the same passion. And like I said, uh, we are working, you know, in the midst of some acute challenges, you know. Be it a pandemic or a war or a disaster, and we have to keep our people motivated. So this is also how we are keeping our people motivated to work every single day. You know, sometimes these things can bore people, uh, because while you're suffering, you know, uh, maybe in the midst of your own personal, uh, challenges, you are also, you know, in the world also, you're looking out at so much challenges on a day basis. Having said that, these story stories also impact our advocacy efforts. So we work at a policy level as well. So we work with policy makers and, you know, these voices from the field also help us, uh, build a enabling policy environment that benefits our small holder farmers, you know, be. Having better policy for agriculture, better policy for, uh, access to finance, to markets, et cetera. So I think, uh, the return on investment of investing into collecting meaningful stories is huge and it is multifaceted. I really liked that you mentioned the employee perspective there too, because we, as we know, particularly as comms folk, that if you get the internal right, the external tends to work. Even better. Uh, and it reminds me of Dan Pink's work. He did a lot of research around what actually engages employees. And it's not title, it's not money, it's autonomy, mastery, and purpose. So having that strong sense of purpose, why am I here? Why am I doing this every day? And as you say. Even when faced with really tough subject matter or your own life, to have that sense of purpose is, uh, absolutely critical to just getting in and getting stuff done for the people that you're supporting. So thank you for raising that point. Um, couple more questions. So for people who may be new to storytelling, what are your three to five tips on how to make sure your stories not only capture attention, but actually do drive change? Sure. For people who are, you know, budding storytellers, I'd like to highlight that they'll have to first sort of understand that great stories can move people. And can actually lead to change. So that's the power of stories. So if they have that in the background when they're developing stories, I think half of their job is done. But if I have to share a few tips, I'd love to, you know, the first tip that I would like to share with the budding storytellers is to tap into emotions when they, you know, come to WR when they decide to write a story. They should not only, you know, sort of focus on fact collection. But also sort of, uh, bring out the feelings, right? Using emotional vocabulary can draw in your audience, right? And focusing not just on what happened is okay, but you also have to focus on how it felt. Right. So what is, what was at stake? What changed? What mattered? Right. At the end of the day, it was just not about, you know, sequencing of events in a story, but really sort of bringing in the core empathizing point where the, the, you know, your protagonist tells you how it felt when he received the support. Or the intervention was introduced into his life, how it felt when he was struggling, how it felt now when he's, you know, a, a, a flourishing entrepreneur and when he see his community rising, et cetera. So really sort of bringing in those anecdotes into your story. Would, is very helpful. The other tip I could give you is to put a face to a story. You know, many a times I've seen a story that got, gets mixed up with, uh, many, uh, you know, uh, central characters. So what I usually do is to focus on one central character, each story. This helps your audience to also sort of root for someone. Celebrate somebody, you know, one person that they can connect with, empathise with, think as if it was, it was, it was her, it was him. So I think focusing on just one person at a time in a story also, uh, could really build up into a really impactful story. So my tip number three is to follow a clear story arc. And I know, you know, uh, many communicators will have their own, uh, structure of, you know, storytelling, but I can share what I usually follow. So I use a narrative structure that takes the audience into a journey. So I begin with an exposition State where you know you're setting the scene, introducing the context, the community, the protagonist. Mm-hmm. Then coming to the rising action, this is where you're introducing the challenge and how your intervention enters the picture. Mm-hmm. Then comes the climax, which is the turning point where the change becomes visible or the conflict hits the peak. And then you slowly sort of come to a falling action. This is where you show the transformation beginning to unfold. And last is the resolution. This is, you know, what's better now? What's changed now, what's future is possible because of this change. So this is the story arc that I usually follow. And Mel, I did tell you about, you know, inserting a real anecdotes of your protagonist in the story, the right sort of, uh, places where I do that is during the rising action and the falling action. You know, these are the two sort of key points where you can really insert your anecdotes. So I think these are going to be my three tips. Tap into emotions, put a face to your story, and follow a clear story up. I love it. Thank you. I think they're great tips and I really love, you know, having a clear structure. As you say, everybody's, there's lots of different ones out there, but so much of it is just allowing people to follow you along logically and not get lost along the way. And I think having a structure is. Just the first it, it's one of the most important things we can do as communicators. It just makes it easier for everybody. So appreciate you mentioning that. One last question. Ai, artificial intelligence, we cannot get away from it. It is a big part of our world now. It's only getting bigger in the comms world. What use cases do you see or have you already seen for AI when it comes to storytelling, but also comms more generally for nonprofit organisations? Absolutely. And AI is un undeniably transforming how we are working in communications and especially in the not-for-profit sector. Mel, it is a game changer, like I said, that we are often, you know, operating into, uh, with lean teams where one person is wearing multiple hats and we are responding to real. You know, conflicts and uh, you know, disasters, et cetera. I think AI can actually play a pivotal role in, you know, how we are working and how fast we are responding to some of these challenges. But you know, caution must be taken. Uh, because AI generated content is often, you know, it leans towards more formulaic machine language. Mm-hmm. And when you bank too much into that, I think you lose the nuances, the intuition, the empathy, you know, that only comes with the human intelligence. So while we, I use a lot of AI in my work, but that is really to sort of support me with logistical kind of work that I do that really sort of, uh, helps me to focus on more strategic work inter in, you know, in my communications, uh, portfolio. Uh, and you know, I also, when it comes to especially storytelling, I would really sort of, uh, ask people to. Refrain from using too much AI because you, you know, uh, people will get it, you know, it, the language is so animated and it just doesn't touch the chords. And I think through the, our entire interview, we've been talking a lot about connections, emotions, you know, the human nuances, et cetera. None of it, I think AI can't capture it at all. So while you can use AI for some of your. You know, uh, supporting roles kind of thing, they can assist you with that, but don't leave the crux of the real meat of the work that you're doing when it comes to storytelling. Mm-hmm. So my motto when it comes to AI is really sort of, AI can assist, but human intelligence must always, uh, you know, lead or drive the narrative. And we all know that human beings have built AI and not otherwise. So human AI should be at the top of. Artificial intelligence. So it's H.I over ai. Love it. Hi over ai. I love that. And look, I totally agree. Uh, I use AI all the time from that. You know, managing workflow and logistics and, and generating ideas. But yeah, you can, as you say, you can so tell when something has been written, especially when it's meant to be a human connection story. And it sounds like a robot wrote it because a robot did write it. So you definitely hear it. Well, Gurpreet, thank you so much for sharing all of those insights. I have three questions I ask every guest on the podcast. Are you ready for those? Sure. Absolutely. Go for it. Take it away. Okay. What's one of the best communication lessons you've ever learned, and how did it change the way you approach communication? Uh, this is a very interesting question, Mel. And you know, one of the things that I've learned in my journey, uh, in the development sector. Of using the language that promotes dignity and respect. And I, you know, I've become like this torch bearer of language shift in the development sector, you know, and why I say that, and this is very, uh, sort of, uh, uh, you know, specific to our sector because our sector is very donor driven and, you know, uh, so we use very donor-centric language as well. Where, you know, we sometimes put our communities, uh, you know, a little lower in the hierarchy and we put our donors somewhere at the top of the hierarchy, which I think needs to change because then, uh, you're not promoting language that promotes dignity and respect. So I think what I've, uh, one of the things that I've learned a lot in my journey is the use of language. Uh, you know, I'll give you a quick example. You know, we are very used to of reading in these donor reports. Words like beneficiaries, words like, you know, things like we are empowering women, or we are empowering communities, which is so incorrect, factually, also incorrect. You know, when you say, uh, there are your beneficiaries, it gives you an uh, gives you a image of they're only here to benefit while what actually happens is you're just giving them the support and everything else they're doing themselves, so they're not the passive receivers. But they're very actively involved into the change that they're bringing in their own life. And the other thing is that we are empowering communities, and I think that's factually incorrect as well, because they're empowering themselves. Mm-hmm. All you're giving them is resources, tools, training. And all of the hard work, you know, is something that they are putting in themselves, in their, uh, you know, leading to their life transformation. Mm-hmm. So, you know, some of these languages that we use, the words, the terms that we use is problematic. And, uh, at Heifer International, we've made a conscious decision to move away from this outdated. Top down language and we now strive to communicate in ways that reflects ref, uh, you know, respect partnerships and shared purpose. For example, rather than using the word term beneficiary, we use project participants. We use stakeholders, we say partners. Rather than saying, we are empowering the communities. You said the communities are empowering themselves, we're supporting for them to empower themselves. Do you know some very little changes that you make in the way you speak or write? Makes a, a whole lot of difference in how your communities are perceived, you know, by the outside world. So I think that's something that I've learned over the years. Mm. You've raised a really good point there around the power of words and one word really can... Change the whole perception of what we think about the facts, right? It's how, it's how the facts are framed. And uh, again, I'm just harping back to what I said earlier around the Frameworks Institute. They very much have the same uh, view, but it's so backed by science as well and research around, you know, these words matter. So thank you for sharing that. The next question, what's one thing you wish people would do more of or less of when communicating? I think, uh, people should listen more when communicating and assume less. You know, when we are meeting our communities, especially for our storytelling missions that we go in, I felt that sometimes, you know, these people are going with a very set mindset of what they want, what kind of stories they want to capture, what kind of messaging that they want to come out with. I think that set sort of mindset sometimes becomes a barrier. Hmm. In really collecting the real impactful stories. So I suggest them to go with an open mind and, you know, to really sort of, uh, listen more to the, to the people that they're interviewing and really sort of coming out with the, you know, right. Asking the right questions, touching the right cords, and giving the com the people enough time to open up. And, you know, sometimes it takes days. For people to open up to you, right? You are a complete stranger and you suddenly reach their home and, you know, ask them some really personal questions. And this is very difficult for some people are very difficult to open up. So what we do in our, uh, mission such missions is we. Sometimes just interview one family the entire day. So we would begin to spend time, know them each, uh, know them better, et cetera, and then come to the interview, which is the interest of us. But with some, you know, we begin by building relationship, building connections, and then they easily open up when the trust, once the trust is built, then I think your job becomes very easy. Mm-hmm. So that's one thing that I want people to do more and I want, uh, people. Uh, to do less is to use the jargons mm-hmm. And technical language, which I think becomes a barrier, a big barrier in the communication itself. So I think what they have to understand is, uh, the language that they use have to build bridges and not just, you know, and not, uh, sort of, uh, otherwise. So, so I think the language that you use also have to be simple language that reach your audience, and I just wanted to, uh, tell you, you know what my. One of my ex bosses once told me, so I was writing an opinion piece, which is a very technical piece, so to say, right? Mm-hmm. For a big, uh, newspaper. And I used some really fancy technical, you know, language and added a few jargons there. And when he read it, he gave me a feedback. He said, Gurpreet, when you write opinion pieces, even though they're technical, et cetera. But you'll have to keep in mind that your audience may be my grandmother or my mother. Who has no context to this development sector or what you are, what you're talking about. Maybe you have about 15 years of experience and this is not new for you, but for her, this is going to be sounding like a big blah. So, you know, that sort of changed my, uh, psyche bit and my approach to writing even technical pieces, like opinion pieces. So I've started to think. From the perspective of my audiences more, what will they connect with? You know, what will they understand easily? How can they consume this, uh, this story to the full? And my message should be conveyed, uh, into easily digestible, uh, you know, uh, nuggets. So, so yeah. So these are the two things that I want them to do more and less. Excellent. We are very aligned on both of those things. Uh, last question. Who do you turn to for communication advice? Oh. Uh, so like I said, that most of my learning has happened on job and I have some excellent, you know, bosses that I've worked with who I have been in touch, I've kept in touch. So currently I sort of, if I get into trouble, I reach out to my managers in my current organisation. Sometimes if it's bigger, a sort of issue, more systemic issue in terms of the communication landscape, then I reach out to my ex bosses that I've reported into. I have men, you know, they have turned into my mentors. So, so, so I've kept in touch with them because they're in this industry for a lot longer than I have. And also being a member of IABC has also been so valuable. You know, it gives me opportunity to engage with communicate stalwarts like you, for example, you know, we are, we are all coming from diverse backgrounds and you know, the perspectives that we can share with each other. The challenges, the knowledge, you know, how do we really sort of, uh, uh, you know, it also changes your perspective into a lot of things. How can I function differently into, uh, into this, uh, challenge what I can do differently? So I think, uh, being part of this community also has helped me a lot and precisely this was my intention to interact with communicators, not just in the development sector, but from diverse sectors that would really bring in the nuances. Into what the, the work that I'm doing here. So I, yeah. That's awesome. Yes, and I, I really love that you've mentioned, you know, past bosses and mentors as well. You know, we learned from so many different places. It's never just one source, so that's great. Gurpreet, thank you so much for your time today sharing so many amazing stories and top tips. If people want to connect with you or learn more about you, where's the best place to go? It's my LinkedIn handle. Fantastic. I can share it, uh, with you and perhaps yes, we'll pop that in the show notes. Yeah, absolutely. And email me. Uh, I would you, I would love to connect and answer if you have any questions. Do connect with me on LinkedIn. I'd love to guide you. Uh, maybe we can have a conversation, uh, you know, where we can uplift each other's work. And if you have any ideas, uh, we can share that with each other. That's a very generous offer. Thank you so much, Gurpreet, and thanks for coming on Less Chatter, More Matter. Love, loved it. Absolutely chatting with you, Mel.