Less Chatter, More Matter: The Communications Podcast

#128 Building connection through cross-cultural comms (ft. Tiffany English)

• Mel Loy • Season 1 • Episode 128

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In a global workplace, communication isn't just about clarity. It's about cultural context, and how you manage this across borders.

In this episode of the Less Chatter, More Matter podcast, we are joined by cross-cultural communication expert Tiffany English, founder of Access Offshoring, to explore what it really takes to lead effectively across cultures. Tiffany shares a candid story from her own experience—when her collaborative leadership style wasn’t landing with her offshore team—and how it revealed a deeper cultural disconnect, not a performance issue.

Together, we unpack the often-overlooked assumptions we bring to leadership: how feedback should be given, how decisions are made, and how trust is built. You’ll learn why directness can feel disrespectful in some cultures, and why silence doesn’t always mean disengagement.

We chat about managing a dispersed team, why comms styles differ across cultures, and how to strengthen your cultural intelligence. We even cover some practical ways you can ask better questions, get better answers and navigate cross-cultural comms. In fact, this episode is packed with practical insights and small shifts that can make a big difference. So.. tune in now.

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In today's world, so much of our communication crosses borders geographically, politically, and culturally. Whether your audience or your team is local or international, there are still nuances of communication we need to think about. And one person who is nailing it is Tiffany English. Tiff is the founder and CEO of Access Offshoring, a company dedicated to connecting Australian businesses with top tier remote talent in the Philippines. Her journey as a leader has been defined by a passion for sustainable growth, grounded in a deep understanding that lasting success comes from building the right systems, and most importantly, empowering the right people. With extensive experience in business improvement and change management, Tiff has navigated the challenges of scaling a company in a complex cross-cultural environment. Her leadership style is centred on fostering collaboration. Driving innovation and cultivating high performing teams that can adapt and thrive over the long term. I asked Tiff to join me for this episode of the podcast because not only is she an award-winning businesswoman and an exceptional human, but her work in building her company in the Philippines while she's based here in Brisbane is a great case study in cross-cultural leadership and communication. Now in this conversation, Tiff shares her observations as a leader of a team based in a different country, the big myths she comes across, and her top tips in building connection through thoughtful cross-cultural communication. This is an episode you do not want to miss, so without further ado, let's get into it. Here's Tiff. Tiffany English. Welcome to Less Chatter, More Matter. Thank you for having me. Thanks for being here. You are a busy woman. And speaking of which, tell us a little bit about you. What do you do and how did you come to develop your expertise in this space? Mm, so currently I have an offshoring offshore recruitment company, so I founded it about four years ago. We now employ full-time dedicated Philippines based staff to work remotely for mainly Australian businesses and some US clients as well. And roles range from admin, right through to engineers and everything in between. So we do some fairly highly skilled roles, but my background's predominantly in change management and business improvement. So I've spent most of my career walking into small, right up to publicly listed companies, doing a lot of turnarounds, hiring a lot of people, implementing a lot of software. And so an offshore strategy was like, how can I pull staff from the right places at the right time? And so offshoring was always part of that strategy and just organically ended up with my own offshore agency. So I love it. It's just, just organically happened, just organic, you know? That's what happens every day. So let's talk about that. So what is your, what's your, the name of your business? Access offshoring. Wonderful. And you've got, as you're saying, most of your team are in the Philippines. So what were some of the biggest surprises for you when you started working with an offshore team? Do you know what I think what it was that I think, I think the biggest surprise for me and probably the biggest lesson was realising the way that I had led and managed before wasn't gonna give me the same outcomes from a Philippines team. So it is really interesting, right? I mean, lots of people think about it from a communication stance and the way you speak is often the way you like to hear information. And often you have to pivot the way you communicate to get a message across, right? And that's, you know, probably not everyone is great at it, but certainly people are aware that, hey, if someone's not understanding this, I probably need to try and say it a different way. But what I found most interesting was it went a lot deeper than that. And so the strategies and tactics that I had used for years in leading hundreds and hundreds of people in teams, that had worked very well for me... Was just falling on deaf ears. Mm. And so it was this, it was just this moment in time that I was like, everything I have done and learnt up until now is actually not gonna effectively build me a high performing Philippines team. And it's not necessarily because I'm not the right leader, or these aren't the right people, it's just actually the way that I'm so used to leading is not the way they're used to being led. And unless I change that, I'm not actually gonna build high performing teams like I'm planning on. Can you give me an example? Yeah, so you know, one of probably the biggest examples, which comes up a lot, and you know, Mel, you've heard me do some talking on different cultural nuances and this is kind of my jam now, but you know, if you think of hierarchy across countries in Australia, we're really flat and quite collaborative, and the way we make decisions is relatively flat, like. Yes, we're not as collaborative as some other cultures from an Aussie perspective, but we're certainly not top down decision makers like Philippines are. And so Filipinos come from this strong hierarchy, lots of layers, strong dictatorship with very much top down decision making. And, and so what was really interesting is that I... I went into this approach of, okay, let's have a collaborative team. Let's help make decisions. Let's pull in the experts. And I've hired experts, and when I created the format for them to be able to provide insights, input, feedback, I would get nothing. Mm. Like silence. And I, you know, you just sit there going, I know everybody has something to add because I've seen your background and I've seen the work you produce, but why are you not comfortable... speaking in a team environment or even one-on-one, you know? And, and so then when I started digging into some of this research and going, oh, they are 100% used to a top down decision making approach, and that's not how I lead. I'm not a dictator. Uh, and so yes, I lead by vision, but I'm always very much, here's the outcome. Team, and I trust you to help us get there and where you need resources or you need me to remove road roadblocks, count me in. And so I think that's one of the really interesting pieces of this. It's like, okay, they're used to a top down decision making process, and I was seeing that time and time and time again. Yet I just kept trying to enforce this model of, well, I want initiative out of you, so can you just. Do it. But that doesn't just happen, right? Because they're conditioned with years and years and decades and, and you know, generations of where we are very much a respectful country. And Mel they even have a term called Pac Kasama in the Philippines, which is all about maintaining harmony and not speaking up when your leader is directing. And so now I'm in this model where... They know they're conditioned not to speak up, and that's what I want of them. And so that's, you know, an example that I still to this day, see and train businesses on just recognising and being aware that they've just come from a different upbringing and a different way of working. And that's okay. It's not a personality trait, it's a conditioning, but they're the differences. And that's how I had to change my leading approach. And there might have been times where I had to be more top down decision making and show authority to show that there were certain decisions that had to be made from the top down. But also develop a culture where they were rewarded and encouraged to speak up. And, and when I started doing that and creating this environment of literally, I, I used to have to say, pre-meeting, by the end of this meeting, everyone has to have two comments or questions. Hmm. And they're the sorts of tactics that I would have to instill in these meetings so that I would encourage them to speak up. And they knew that it was for a positive outcome, not that they were gonna be penalised for it. Yeah. And that was gonna be my next question actually, is what are some of the strategies that you've mm, had to bring in to counteract some of that culture? Hmm. So you mentioned one there having, you know, being directive in terms of giving, you know, you want feedback and you want comments. What other tactics have you had to use? Definitely a lot more context. Mm-hmm. So, I, I talk a lot when I talk about the cultural nuances. I have a bit of a diagram that I, that I illustrate, and it just shows that when you look at where Australia may sit on a matrix or on a on a scale, and where Philippines may sit in terms of parameters such as hierarchy and decision making like we've talked about, but also communication and trust. If you look at communication, Australians are very low context. We tend to provide one sentence and expect everyone to read between the lines and produce an outcome, and that's just the way we've always communicated. Filipinos are high context, like they couldn't get any further along the high context scale if we tried. They like the whole story. And so the, the sort of training and tactics that we employ ourselves and train do as much via video as possible. Mm-hmm. Right. And this is not just Philippines, this is when you're dealing with any other culture, whether they're in another country or whether they're sitting next to you. Right. We all come with preconceived ways that we communicate, the way that we handle the way that we'd like to be managed. So the more video and voice that you can do, the better, because naturally you'll provide more context. They can also watch it back. Open-ended questions are an absolute must. Have to have open-ended questions because when you're dealing with certain countries that are people pleasing by nature, you're gonna get what you wanna hear versus what you need to hear. And if I ask things like, do you understand that they're gonna say yes and they may not. And so when I pivot that to tell me what you just understood about what I said, or repeat to me what the next steps need to be on this particular project, then I'm ensuring that they understand and they're comfortable because I've gone in expecting an answer. So when you just slightly tweak, it's not, it's not an absolute shift in the, in your leadership or management style, but it's those little tiny tweaks in the way that you show up and the way that you communicate. That absolutely changes the outcome. Mm. It's pretty, yeah, it's pretty phenomenal. Yeah. So if I just play that back to you, it's, uh, it sounds like, uh, the Erin Meyer culture map, uh, is what you're referencing, the high context, low context. Uh, but I guess for more context, so to speak, for our listeners, it is a spectrum, right? So. Compared to Australia, the Filipino culture might seem very high context, but compared to say, uh, Germans or Dutch... Australians might also seem very high context. So it is, it does shift depending on, as you said, like how, where you've grown up and those sorts of things. But those three tactics you shared was those directive instructions actually asking, you know, saying, I want to, I want you to give feedback two points. So being very directive, a video, and having that open-ended Discussion. So thank you for sharing those. Uh, when we think about some of the biggest myths that people have with working with people from another culture or another country, what are some of those big myths that you've heard or experienced? I think skill is probably one of the big areas of aspects, like what do people actually believe people in other countries are capable of, of achieving. I hear this often. You know, there's, and I spend all my time in the Philippines, so I'm sorry that I keep referencing back there, but the, you know, from a Philippines perspective, there's a huge stigma around call centres and, um, virtual assistants, right? VAs, VAs and call centres. Whenever, when typically when you talk about it to someone who hasn't employed, highly qualified staff out of the Philippines, they're the two things that they default to. And like we don't even hire what we would reference as a virtual assistant. Like I just think that's the most ridiculous title in the universe, right? Mm-hmm. Because like what are they actually doing for you? Are they a sales administration role? Are they actually an executive assistant? They actually calendar manager and managing and email managing, or? Are they, you know, an internal account support? What actually are they? And so I think when you actually start looking at the population of the Philippines and the skill, the amount of education, the experience they have, when people get exposed to that and start seeing resumes with five, 10 years experience in certain skills with degrees, many of whom have master's degrees, um, you start to recognise, oh, actually. I can hire highly skilled people out of countries like these rather than this, this belief and myth that actually they're just, you know, kind of. Absolutely base baseline tasks. Yeah. So that's something that I'm still kind of combating, I think as a, as the biggest myth. And I think that's across mul, multiple countries that that believe. Oh, totally. Yeah. And actually I was in the Philippines in March for a conference and uh, part of some people on the organising committee were Filipino. And it was just so interesting, you know, just echoing some of what you're saying that like. Uh, the level of skill in the Philippines comms community alone is phenomenal. You know, so highly experienced, very diligent, very well educated. Um, but some of that hierarchy piece came into it as well when we were organising things, you know, and they had to really skill us in what to expect. You know, we, we were that very much, oh, well everybody here can just pitch in and, you know, blah, blah. And no, there's some people who are very, you know, well respected Comms people and you would not ever put them on the front desk. They're there to, you know, mingle with the VIPs and, and you know, we have a VIP table and all these things that, you know, had never even crossed my mind. That was something we would do. Uh, but again, it's been an amazing learning experience, so I actually really love that too. It's so cool. Um. Well, how do you make sure that despite the, you know, the really big geographical language, cultural differences and divides mm-hmm. That you remain connected to your team. Mm-hmm. I was, I was on a, um, panel the other day and a question similar came up and it was really interesting because I, my belief in the way you run successful businesses just comes down to people. Right. We, we've got tech, we've got programs, we've got systems, we've got process. There's all these elements that absolutely have to help you run, but you need people irrespective of anything. And if you can be a people led organisation, it starts to shift. And so, let me give an example of something I do. So, um. So one of the things that we do internally at Access Offshoring and we train our clients to do as well, is we actually at the start of every year, sit with all of our people and do PPF goal planning. So personal, professional and financial goal planning. And so the team were actually expected to go away, do their own goal planning, and for the first, when we did this for the very first year, there was lots of people that had never actually sat down and written their goals, right? Mm-hmm. For some of us, that's, you know, I do that weekly, but for others it's not common. And so, um, to then sit with their direct manager. And walk through what are their one year, three year, and five year goals across their personal life, their financials, and their professional life was absolutely revolutionary in becoming a people led organisation because what that did was it allowed us to connect on a completely different level. It allowed us to understand exactly what motivated these people and what they're aiming towards, but most importantly, it allowed us to connect their bigger picture goals with what we're doing day to day in the organisation. Hmm. And the minute you can connect what they're trying to achieve on a personal perspective with what they're achieving on a day to day at work and how our goals as a company is helping them get closer to their goals, all of a sudden the dynamic shifts almost instantaneously. And so part of this process for us is helping keep people accountable and saying, every, every fortnight in their check-in is part of that is where are you up to? Are your goals in on track? Are they off track? How can we help you? Um, and it's also just helping everyone understand that yes, we're a high performing culture. But we're always, we're in this for a reason and we're in this for personal reasons, and so how do we connect those dots? And it has been such a game changer for us. So that's one of the things that we do. Um, our check-ins are extremely important. Um, every other week we do kind of a bit of a non-formal catchup. It might be a game of bingo or something because the other thing we have to, we recognise is, and again this is probably quoting Erin Meyer, whose book I love, um, is around how do cultures build trust? And some are really relationship focused and others are really task based. And so it's, it's easy for me as a task-based individual to get caught up in what is the next task. And as we complete tasks, my trust for individuals begins to grow. But for others, it's completely relationship based. And until the relationship exists and the actual output on the task is gonna be pretty mediocre. And so it, it's important as a... As a company, even if you have to put some level of systemisation around it to actually have process in place that you can build relationship. And so things like this, bingo, allows us to have a bit of fun and, um, occupy me because I can't just sit and have a chat. I need something to do. My mind works too quick, right? So it's doing things that you know you can do and achieve. But still actually have an outcome that's positive for the whole organisation. Um, and then I head over to the Philippines. I love the Philippines, so I go there, I take them out for dinner. We have, you know, sessions together. And I encourage anybody who has offshore teams, particularly as you start growing a team, you know, more than a couple, put it in your budget, get over there once a year, wherever they're located, take them out for a meal, do some training with them, because the, the. The whole relationship will change. The loyalty deepens. There's a lot of big benefits to just going face to face. Oh, totally. You can't replace that. But I will ask a hypothetical question. Okay. Let's say COVID, 19 Mac, two hit tomorrow and you couldn't travel over there. How do you think you would change your approach to staying connected and to communicating with your team? Well, we kind of started in that era, right? So I did, one of my first trips to the Philippines was after the fact. So I built a whole Philippines based organisation in the era of the first bout of COVID, hopefully the last bout of COVID. Although this hypothetical question is a little daunting, um, um, I think what's important is that you have to create connection and I, I think this is relevant. Irrespective of whether they're Philippines based or if they're, you know, between Melbourne and Brisbane. Mm. If you can't create connection. You are gonna really struggle to build an environment of trust and an environment of people who enjoy each other's company and wanna perform. And so you, even if they're microseconds of moments, you have to create that. And so if that's in the huddle, first thing in the morning where you've got an opportunity to jump online and have a chat with people, if it's a matter of, hey, you see something they like and you send a photo of it to them, if it's you send a voice memo because hey, it's nice to actually have some of that... connection via voice versus text. Mm. And so they're the sorts of things that I attempt to do. Um, and then the check-ins like do not fall short on check-ins. Like I think it's something that people; you get busy, right? Yeah. And, and you, you might have a check-in, but it's completely goal orientated or task focused. And sometimes you just need to check in to say, Hey, how you doing? How's things on your end? What can I support you with better? You know, what do you need from me? And it, you just need to be able to have a, have a conversation. So I think there're some of the elements. And then, you know, if you are having a lunch, send over a voucher so they can order Uber Eats, right? Like, let them enjoy those moments as well. And it's not hard for you to make it happen, you know, it's literally a, you know, put, put 20 bucks on their card or, you know. Yeah, organise Uber. Like it's really not difficult to do, but I just think it's intention, Mel, like, and everyone's gonna be slightly different, but you just have to be intentional because you don't get water cooler chats when you're remote. And if you're not intentional, it ain't gonna happen. So it can look many ways, but there's some of the ways that we do it. Love it. And I think purposeful communication is, as you say, like that's what's important. It's, but also. My mantra is anything that sends a message is a form of communication. So to your point, you know, skipping a, a catch up once is one thing, but skipping it multiple times sends a message that maybe you don't care. Or, you know, canceling those trips or doing those things or sends a message as well. Uh, so they're very lucky to have you, Tiff. Um, two more questions for you. You've already shared a little bit about this, but what are some of the other top tips that you would give to people who want to work with people... In another country, whether that's they have off their own offshore team or they're expanding their business. Mm. Uh, well, there's lots of, if, if you, lots of people have offshore before and had a really bad taste in their mouth, right? Mm-hmm. And so it's, yeah, I try, I tried to say this with always very kindly, but people say to me, Tiff, I tried that once and it was the worst thing I ever did. And I was like, well, good news. There's 119 million other Filipinos, so try again. Right. And I just kind of go back to the point that, yeah, we're not always gonna hire correctly. And so if you are offshoring for the first time, or you have offshored before and it hasn't quite been right, there's a, there's usually two things that have gone wrong. One, recruitment and the, often from a recruitment stance, it gets really underestimated, particularly when the resource is so much more affordable than locally. There is just this overarching expectation that you don't have to put in as much time and effort recruiting. Mm-hmm. Uh, that is completely false. Please put in just as much, if not more time, it is really important that you go through a, a, a culture interview and understanding exactly if they're gonna be the right fit for the organisation. You go through a skills test and you know, one of, um, our mates, Paula, Mel, she always talks about an Excel example, right? Mm-hmm. If you don't skills test them, they might think. You know, colouring in cells in Excel is very complicated, but actually you need someone doing macros. So really skills test. And so I think recruitment is absolutely underestimated. And the second thing is just having some cultural awareness. And, and it goes both ways. It does absolutely go both ways. And we do education a lot in the Philippines when they're working with Australian clients or US clients as well. But if you can just have some baseline understanding of how that culture is slightly different to how we operate. You don't have to understand it all, but if you, if you have a curious mindset when something happens, curious, not furious, right? You actually start developing the ability to have conversations to understand each other. And to communicate more effectively. And if you just said, Hey, this is, I was trying to communicate this, did that come across the way that I was, that I was intending? Oh, no, absolutely not. Got it. I'll, I'll work on ways that I can communicate more effectively. So I, I think for people going down this offshoring path, or even recruiting people from different cultures who bring so much variety, right? So much variety. So, so much ability to just expand the way you look at the world if you have different cultural backgrounds. Recruitment and understanding cultural nuances. I think if you can, if you can just become a little bit more aware of those two things, you're a hell of a lot closer than others who, who don't do those. Really great advice. Thank you. Mm-hmm. And yeah, you touch on something that we should be doing with communication anyway, right. Is being curious. And one of my favorite quotes is George Bernard Shaw. He says, the single biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has taken place. So to actually check understanding and to check if the message has landed. Anyway, not just across cultures, but just in general anyway, is, yeah, should be basic standard practice. So I am glad you reinforced that. Thank you. Uh, finally, artificial intelligence, we've gotta talk about it because it's a big part of our worlds now. How is your team using AI to support that communication piece, if at all? Uh, we are strong on ai. We use it day in and day out, and I strongly believe that. And, and it's happened in our organisation where AI has had the ability to five x the output of some of my particular departments. And so I look at it from a perspective of how can I capitalise on my people in their skillset and just use AI for them to be a hell of a lot faster? Mm. And we've been able to achieve that, right? And so there are certain ways from a communication standpoint, particularly in recruitment, you know, AI is helping us do things like scan resumes. Look at the way people are writing. Um, to us in their cover letters, looking at their initial video interviews and understanding, right, are they gonna be the right fit? Do they culturally fit the organisation we're trying to place them for? Um, and then, you know, we use also, another good way that we use it is, you know, example of my ea she writes content for me day. Well, my EA and my marketing person, they both are writing content for me in different means, right? My EA is very much responding on my behalf. And my, uh, content draft. Uh, my content writer is writing a lot of content to help us push out. Both of them, write pieces of content, and then jump into an AI tool and say, write this the the way Tiff would. That's awesome. Right. And like, why wouldn't you do that? Yeah. And it's at the point now I look in my scent inbox because my EA has written stuff and I, I'm like, did I write that? I don't remember writing that, but man, that sounds just like me. And I'm like, that is phenomenal, because now I can be in many places at once, right? Yeah. So we are using it day in, day out. I have to keep encouraging. And I think what's probably the biggest downfall of AI is if managers aren't. Telling their teams, I want you to use it. This is not a negative. It's gonna help you do better in your job. I don't look at it as though you're being lazy. I don't look at it as though you don't wanna do the task. I. I just want you to do it better and faster. Yeah. And AI can help you do that. And so we're constantly, it, it's probably more the, the biggest problem we have is how do you not get shiny objects syndrome and go deep on some AI tools and not have like 75 on the go at once? Um, but yeah, we use it day in, day out and I don't, I think why wouldn't you? So. I think it's all just a combination. But if you're not using AI, you definitely should be. Let it, let it help your team. Yeah. That's what it's there for. Yeah. I mean, this is the thing, right? The tools might change. The tools have changed over the years. Mm-hmm. And they will continue to change. Mm-hmm. The audience remains the same. They're still human beings, so you've still gotta reach people. Um, it reminded me, I was in the, uh, not Philippines, Malaysia, a couple of years ago running some training sessions over there, and one of the people in my course has a. Team of comms people, and they do a lot of customer, uh, interaction and she couldn't understand why some of them just weren't performing as well. And then she found out, you know, eventually a couple of them said to, uh, her look, oh, when I reply in English because they spoke Malay, uh, when I reply in English, I don't feel confident. I don't think my English is that great. She's like, just run it through AI. Literally, I'm happy for you to put it into, you know, ChatGPT or whatever and ask it to fix up the grammar and fix up the spelling. That's okay. And that just improved their output nonstop, but also their confidence because it just lack of confidence in another language, which is totally understandable. Um, but to use it as a tool for that, yeah, cross communication is amazing. And confidence build co builds confidence, right? That's what, that's what happens. So, um, yeah, I, I'm a big fan of it and I'm trying to learn Tagalog right now and I'm too scared to talk to it. Yeah. I'm too scared, too scared to speak to my own team in Tagalog because I'm like, you know, and so I think of them and I go, you guys speak to me every day in English as your second language. And sometimes they, they don't say things properly. Um, and I'm like, what? And they're still speaking a second language Much better than I speak any other language. So just our, our first language, like yeah, right. I'm just in awe of anybody who speaks more than one language, honestly. I know. So impressive. I dunno how your brain switches between, anyway, that's a whole other conversation. So I've got three questions that I ask every guest on the podcast. You ready for those two? Yeah. Fire away. Let's do it. What is one of the best communication lessons you've ever learned, and how did it change the way you communicate? I, you know, it's, it, it's probably similar to what we've spoken about already. I think it's, I think it's. Understanding that the way I communicate and communicate to one person isn't the way that I need to communicate to all. I think that's probably what it is. And it's, that's not even just cultures aside, that's just people and personalities in play, right? And the way that I can motivate one person is gonna be very different to the way that I can motivate someone else. And so you have to, as a leader, learn to communicate differently. And if you want outcomes. That's a, a fast lesson you need to learn. And as a parent, that's also a very helpful Lesson. And as a lots of things just recognise how they wanna be communicated to, and if you can achieve that, then it. Life gets a whole lot easier. Absolutely. There's no one size fits all, so. Mm-hmm. A very valuable lesson. Second question, what's one thing you wish people would do more of or less of when communicating? I'd like them to assume less. Hmm. I think, I think assuming is a dangerous thing and I, uh, I think what we're, we're human beings and we have emotions. And I think it is, it is common for things to be said in a particular way with no ill intent. Yeah. But the way it's perceived can be negative and it can spiral people in completely the wrong way. Instead of just saying, Hey, I just, is this what you meant to say? Is this the way you were intending for that to fall? Mm-hmm. And I would, I would suggest that 99% of the time it would be like, oh no, absolutely not. No, that is not in any way, shape or form how I intended to say that. And I'm sorry. So I think less assumption and, and more clarification. I think that's an excellent idea. And last question, who do you turn to for communication advice? You definitely, no, I do genuinely. Um, definitely you and I just try to, you know, my, my dreams is to be a leader of, Lots and lots and lots and lots of people and to, to impact, you know, impact is a core value of mine. How can I impact and influence the most effectively? And so I watch a lot of other leaders that do that in volume, and I watch the way they speak on stage. And I just continuously try to take tips and just keep trying. Right? And if that message didn't land the way that I wanted it to land, how can I say it differently the next time? So a lot of trial and error and then, yeah, watching whoever I can, whenever I can. Yeah, I think that's, you know, we all learn by osmosis too, right? Mm-hmm. So as long as you're open to that, I think you're in a good place. Well, Tiff, thank you so much for your time today, 'cause I know you are a busy, busy lady. If people wanted to find out more about you or connect with you, what's the best way to do that? Definitely jump on our website, accessoffshoring.com.au Or alternatively follow me on LinkedIn, uh, or connect with me on LinkedIn, Tiffany English. I do a lot of content on there about cultural nuances. There's a lot of good information and I just love connecting. And if you're in Brisbane, reach out and we'll grab a coffee. Brilliant. Well thanks Tiff. Thank you so much.