Less Chatter, More Matter: The Communications Podcast

#117 Communications as the fix for change fatigue (ft. Kate Neilson)

• Mel Loy • Season 1 • Episode 117

Share episode

In this episode of the Less Chatter, More Matter podcast, we are joined by Kate Neilson, a Senior Editor and Content Strategist at Mahlab, to explore how change fatigue happens in an organisation, and what comms can do to essentially, fix it.

With extensive experience writing for the Australian HR Institute and working closely with business leaders, Kate offers a unique perspective on the challenges organisations face in adapting to a fast-paced, technology-driven environment.

As businesses continue to grapple with hybrid work models, mental health issues, and the increasing pace of change - traditional communication strategies are no longer working to foster the engagement and connection needed. Which is why Kate discusses the growing importance of a more human-centred approach to communication—what she calls belonging communications. 

This approach helps to mitigate change fatigue and reduce resistance to new initiatives, all while giving practical strategies for communicators to thrive in a world full of change.

This episode is a must-listen for communicators looking to adapt their practices, stay ahead of the curve, and navigate the complexities of modern org-wide change with a focus on people and connection. Tune in now to get the low down.

Enrol now for early bird pricing!

Our 2025 Crisis Communication Skills Virtual Bootcamps are open for enrolment. Get in quick to secure your spot and discounted pricing. Find out more here.

Links mentioned in this episode:

Say hi!
Follow me on LinkedIn
Find out what I'm up to Instagram
Check out my website
Ask a question

Think back to just five years ago, how different was the world and the workplace then. Very few workplaces had hybrid or remote work arrangements The most we used AI was Siri on our iPhones, and we expected one or two big changes if a year at work, but that was about it. In just five years, so much has changed in the workplace and it just keeps changing faster and more frequently than ever before. And for communication professionals and change managers and leaders, that means we need to change our approaches too, because not only has the world around us changed, but the way people respond to change is starting to shift as well. So what can we do differently? That's a question I asked today's guest, Kate Nielsen. Kate is a content creator with over a decade of experience producing content for a range of diverse clients from all walks of life. She's a Senior Editor at Marlab, a global business communications agency that is headquartered in Sydney, and that's where she works on a range of different clients, including leading the publications and podcast of the Australian HR Institute. In this role, she has developed a personal passion for writing about all things work, and is especially interested in exploring how employers and employees can adapt to a rapidly changing world of work. Now Kate has the great privilege of being able to talk to people from so many different organisations from all over Australia as part of her job, which means she really has her finger on the pulse of what's happening in workplaces and what's happening with change and comms. And I first met Kate at the IABC APAC Fusion Conference a few months ago where she presented on the topic of change apathy. And I knew I had to pick her brains more. So I invited her on the podcast. And in this episode, she shares a wealth of knowledge on the. State of play workplaces, what's working, what's not, and she shares her own framework to create change communications that actually work. So without further ado, here's Kate. Kate, welcome to Less Chatter, More Matter. Thanks for having me, Mel. I'm really excited for this conversation. Yeah, me too. Especially, uh, after we met in Manila at the IABC APAC conference. I know I wanted to pick your brains more. Uh, but before we get into that, can you tell us a little bit about you? What do you do? How did you come to develop your expertise in that space? Yeah, for sure. Um, so I am a senior editor and content strategist at Marlab. So we are a, um, global business communications agency headquartered in Sydney, Australia. So I've been here for around seven years and written a variety of different types of content for a bunch of different clients from, you know, sectors, um, far and wide. But the stuff that really energises me and excites me is writing all about things work related. So, um, part of my role at Marlab and one of the hats that I wear is, um, being the editor for the publications of the Australian HR Institute. So that means I have the privilege of speaking with business leaders and HR leaders about all of the really interesting, um, all of the really interesting strategies and things that they're doing to kind of try and... prime and prep their workforce and work practices for this really ever evolving world of work that we find ourselves in. So, certainly been a really fascinating time for me to write about work over the past five years, as I'm sure you can imagine. There's, there's plenty of fodder and lots of change, which, um, that's kind of just what I was excited about diving into professionally and personally was just how do we help people to navigate this change? You know, we're thinking about work. Now versus five years ago, they're chalk and cheese. Um, and you know, that's not something that a lot of people experience is being able to, um, you know, say that the way they work is completely different than it was five years ago. So I find that really fascinating. Um, I'm really glad that this professional world is where I spend my time because I think... being a communicator or an effective communicator has never been more important. I think we've, we've well and truly busted this myth that communication is somehow a soft skill. You know, I hate that phrase. Me too. I think we really need to talk about the fact that it's a superpower and being able to do it well, um, is something that boards and executives and stakeholders and clients, you know, finally it feels like we're all on the same page and saying, this is, this is a really, really critical skill for you to develop, and it helps the business move forward. Yeah, it is absolutely essential. So how did it come that you ended up at Marlab - what was your journey up to that point? My journey up to that point. Well, to be quite frank, I was in industries that I didn't find very interesting. I was spending some time, um, not to offend anyone listening, but I was spending some time writing about the finance industry. And it was just something that I couldn't wrap my head around. I didn't find a lot of excitement and enjoyment around it. And to be honest, I kind of just moved for, for, uh, from a place of just wanting something fresh. And then when I, when I came to Marlab, they said, oh, you're gonna write about hr. I was like, oh, that sounds boring as well. And then I started doing it and I was like, I could not have been more wrong. This stuff is, I. Fascinating. It's all about humans. It's all about human intricacies. Um, yes, there's the policies and the processes that doesn't, you know, that's not always exciting, but it's important. Um, but writing about humans and the things that businesses struggle with, I think is just such an honor because, um, you know, we've seen content around work just become a lot more common. And I think people, I find it more interesting because everyone is touched by these changes in some way. So the stuff that I'm writing about, yes, it's for hr, but I think anyone can kind of pick, pick parts of it that will be relevant to their world as well. Yeah. And there's um, uh, like you mentioned, the last five years has been, nuts, you know, if you just stop and think about it. Pandemic hybrid work, uh, political changes we've had, um, technology changes, AI springing up out of everywhere the actual workforce is changing. What are some of the key trends you've seen emerge in the last five years? Yeah, I mean, you're so right in saying that change is everywhere. I think we, um, obviously you and I met at the, the IABC Fusion Conference and one of the things I spoke about, there was a quote that someone said to me, what I heard, um, at an event, which was that change is accelerating faster than ever before today. Yet today is the slowest it will ever be. Um, and we've heard a lot of iterations of that quote since then, but at the time, for me, that was a real light bulb moment. I was like, oh my gosh, yes. We are just living in this world where today feels overwhelming and tomorrow will be even bit more overwhelming. Mm-hmm. So that's what I'm hearing from business leaders and HR practitioners is that, you know, their people feel like they're just exposed to so much newness. I mean, technology is the obvious one, I think. Um, there's a platform for everything now, and quite often we have one challenge we're trying to solve when we plug 10 different pieces of technology into it. And that's, you know, creating um, complexity that we don't necessarily need. Um, but I think a lot of the change that people are struggling with is happening a little bit more deeply on a personal level of how do we develop resilience to, you know, difficult news, um, or difficult situations that are springing out of work around restructures and people losing their jobs or, um, personal financial challenges that kind of come on the fringes of our work experiences. You know, there's a lot of, um, hard, tricky stuff around mental health. Mm. Um, I think that's, that's the stuff that, um, HR people in particular are obviously expert at dealing with, but it doesn't make it any easier. So, you know, it's, it's this relentless, uncatchable feeling of change that employees just aren't built for knowing how no humans, I should say, aren't built for these never ending change cycles. That's something that you spoke about at the conference. You know, we have brains that aren't necessarily made for the millions of notifications and emails and training courses and news articles that we are exposed to every day. So I think that's like a, it's a really important thing for businesses to be paying close attention to and thinking about, because it's a foundation of how work gets done and productivity happens, you know, if people are feeling... in a flap and overwhelmed all the time, how can we expect progress in our organisations? Yeah, it's a really good point. It's, uh, the overwhelm is huge. And I think we've touched on a little bit of this already, but in your conversations that you are having with businesses and professionals around the country and your colleagues who are working in, in different industries, what are some of the common issues you're hearing about the actual change experience for employees, how that's being managed? I think it's, there's a communication piece at the centre of all of this. I think quite often. Um, and I know we might speak about this in a bit more depth later, but we're really reverting to perhaps traditional approaches that might have worked well. Even five years ago. But you know, 10, 20, 30 years ago, um, there was a very, a strong sense of like being quite directive and being quite top down. And there are circumstances where that type of communication is really effective. You know, someone said to me once, um, to use the analogy of, you know, if there's a fire, you don't want someone to empower you to find the exit. You want 'em to tell you how to find the exit pretty quickly. So there is a place for that type of stuff. Um, but I really do think that we need to... think about how we can bring people along on the journey and use a language that makes'em feel part of what's going on. And I think that's what's been missing for a lot of people at the moment, is that they just feel like they're being, you know, directed to do X, Y, Z and perhaps they don't necessarily have the underlying message of, and here's how that benefits you. Um, so that's where, at the conference I was talking about, um, belonging comms and, you know, the importance of being a bit more inclusive in our language, which I can, I can go... talk about more now if you like. Or we might have another question in between that. Yeah. Well I, I know when you talked about the belonging comms, it was in the context of, um, this idea of change apathy. So I hear a lot, you know, change, uh, resistance, change, fatigue. What is change? Apathy, how is that coming about? What kind of impact is that having? Yeah. Um, I think maybe I'll just quickly give some context and a couple of quick data points just to set that up because I think, um, this is a concept that came from an interview that I did with an expert at Gartner. Um, and I do think they are the experts, you know, that they're the people I turned to for all the data on change. I mean, they're doing such great work. Um, and they found that. In 2016, the average organisation was experiencing just two, what they call unplanned enterprise wide changes per year. So that's something like having a new leadership team come in, restructure, big tech implementation, something that's gonna kind of rock the boat a little bit. Um, and then in 2024, so less than 10 years later. The average organisation experienced 12 of those changes per year. So it's like a pretty massive shift. And like in some respects, that's to be expected. We are talking nearly a decade on, obviously work is becoming more complex. Um, change is always expected. It's probably important to say, you know, change is often good. Um, I'm not here saying change is bad. I think it's just how we talk about change sometimes isn't necessarily effective. Um, but what Gartner found at the same time as that is that employees, um, they found a correlation between the amount of change the average employee is exposed to and their willingness to embrace that change. So in 2016, that was sitting at about 70% or around the mid seventies of. Employees who said, yes, I'm willing to jump on forward this change that you're putting forward. Whereas now in 2024, that data was sitting at about 40%. So, you know less than half of the workforce who are saying, Hey, yep, I'll, I'll be involved in this change. And this is change that businesses spend millions of dollars, thousands of, you know, resources trying to get across the line and then it's just not cutting through. So this is kind of what's leading up to that. Um. That change apathy that we spoke about and that Gartner is kind of talking about, which is, you know, it's not just the change fatigue that we, you know, we're tired of change. It's, we're actually, people are saying, I don't care about this change. I don't want to be involved. I'm kind of passively part of it. Um, so in some respects we do have those passive observers of change rather than those active participants, which are what, you know, businesses really, really need and, and. That undermines transformation efforts in a huge, huge way. You know, there's poor adoption, there's late missed deadlines or KPIs. Um, innovation stalls off the back of that. People just don't wanna put their hand up with a new idea or new way of doing things. We kind of bunker down to protect ourselves a little bit. Um, and then off the back of that, the ripple effect is, you know, there's trust that um, is eroded and loyalty that declines and all these terrible things that, um, yeah, you just don't want in your business. Gartner found anecdotal links between change and people's propensity for misconduct. Mm geez. Um, so, you know, it's, it's rewiring how we we operate and show up at work, which, um, yeah, like I said before, is something that we need to be taking really seriously. Yeah, a hundred percent. And then I guess that then leads to, okay, well. If we're seeing this change, apathy and, yeah. Yes. It's almost a decade ago, but realistically, when you think about the history of humanity that's so fast and how quickly this has moved, um, and to your point earlier you said, you know a lot of. Communicators and change. People are still relying on the same old, same old approaches. So you've talked about the concept of belonging communications and how they can be used as a strategy to, um, address that apathy that we're seeing. Can you tell us a bit more what you mean by belonging communications? Yeah, for sure. Um, so I think. If we look at traditional change communication, it's often all about what the business wants to get out of the change. So we want you to learn this new tech platform, we want you to do this new process. Um, they're not necessarily doing the work to connect the dots between how this might impact an individual, impact them in a positive way or a negative way. It doesn't necessarily matter. It's just kind of bringing them into how this will change. The, your work experience in some way. So belonging communications is really about how we can flip that lens and um, make employees feel like they're part of that process rather than just being on the receiving end. So this is a way for you to kind of ensure that your message not only reaches people, which is the traditional approach, which is obviously important, but then resonates with them, which is what we need for that sustainable long-term buy-in of a change. Because, you know, obviously as you would know, change isn't something we can just flick a switch on and it happens. It's, it's. That you need communication and processes that span months, even years sometimes for some workplace changes to actually stick and implement and, and be effective. So, um, at the conference I kind of shared a, a slide that looked at the difference between traditional and belonging comms. And I think, um, that's something you mentioned we might be able to pop into the show notes for people. Absolutely. Um, but part of that is looking at things like. Um, you know, rather than top down updates, it's two-way dialogue that invites input. Um, one part of that graph that I think is really important is inviting curiosity instead of assuming resistance, because I think quite often in traditional approaches we. Even if we're not explicitly saying it, we're coming from the perspective and we, in this instance being the employer, um, of assuming that people aren't gonna like the change that we are putting forward. And I think that just colors how you talk about it and, um, almost plants the seed for the, the receiver of that message to be resistant. So instead, if you're demonstrating that curiosity approach. It's about saying things like, Hey, we're making this change in a couple of months. Like, would you like to learn more about it? Would you like to be involved in it? Would you like to be part of a pilot program that gives us some feedback on it? Um, you're bringing them in, um, and the outcome is the same or the outcome is what you originally wanted with the traditional approach, but it's just a bit more of a, a human-centric way of bringing people along on the journey. And I think, you know, it's a subtle shift, but important one. And impactful. Have you seen any organisations doing it really well? Mm. I'm sure there are many people that are doing it really well. Um, the fact that I can't bring one to mind right now doesn't mean there isn't. Yeah. Um, but I do think. The thing about the people I'm speaking to are the people that are experts in this space. Mm-hmm. So my lens is a little bit colored in that sense. So I speak with a lot of consultants and a lot of businesses that are saying, you know, this is how we approach things. Whereas, um, their sentiment and some of the things I'm hearing from them is that this is not what everyone is doing. Yeah. Because quite often during times of, um, disruption, we reach for familiar things that worked in the past. And so this is, and it's a bit, and it's a bit challenging because I think you do have to. Um, as the internal comms person or as the HR leader, whoever it is that's kind of spearheading this. You do have to challenge a lot of other C-suite peers of yours who do hold that view of the old way is the best way. Mm-hmm. Um, and it goes back to kind of what we were saying before of how do we bust this myth that communications is a soft skill or a soft profession. Um, it's showing up and kind of saying, Hey, you know, the results you want are x the risk that we, that we have, if we don't bring our people along on the journey is millions of dollars down the drain, millions of wasted hours, you know, kind of building that business case up to demonstrate the impact of poor communication in that sense. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. It's, it's about positioning ourselves that way. So there are a lot of people that will be doing that, but I'm quite often speaking to those that are coming in to help people do that, who aren't. Yeah. Well, it's good to know that there are people helping others do it. Yeah. So that's good. Exactly. Um, one of the things you did talk about was the bar framework, BAR. What is that? How can we use it to make our change comms more effective? Yeah, full disclosure, it's, um, I pulled this together to collate the information, so this was something that I made up. I like it, but I do still think it's really useful. I make up frameworks all the time. It's fine. Yeah, it's, it's about making communication accessible, right? Yeah. Um, so the bar framework was pulled from the, a lot of the conversation I've been having with people. So it is backed by a lot of, um, other experts, but the B stands for Be Real. So that's about how can we avoid... corporate jargon, how can we avoid making messages overly complex for no reason? Um. A jargon makes people feel a bit alienated. It makes them feel like you are talking about the business, what the business wants, not about them. Mm-hmm. Um, b, sometimes they don't understand it, so your message gets lost. C people feel like they're, you're trying to pull the wool over their eyes when you are, you know, cloaking messaging in a lot of unnecessary jargon. I often think back to, um, a conversation I had with an employment branding expert and we were talking about, you know, how can you get, um. Your job ad to stand out in, you know, the sea of LinkedIn jobs. And he said, I always add a section in my jobs that says, here's why you might not like working here. And he'll list, you know, we are a, we are a, um, we a hardworking culture. We push people or you might find that we, that our ways of working don't necessarily align with you. Or he kind of just goes through a list of things and he says that's a way to a, get the people that you wanna apply, but also to just leave a better impression with people.'cause you kind of think, okay, cool, I'm not gonna waste my time in applying for this 'cause that's not the role for me, but, you know, you've been authentic. So I think that piece, that authenticity piece is really, really critical in communication and kind of lines up with that belonging and inclusive language that we use. Um, a is about anchoring in relevance. So that's the what's in it for me factor and showing employees, you know, as I said before, how it could benefit them positively as well. Um, so I think. Sometimes the argument that comes up around the what's in it for me is the whole, oh, gen Z employees wanting all this stuff that they can't have. Which again, I'm, it's another thing I just don't really like, um, hearing 'cause I think it's much more complicated than that. Mm-hmm. Um, work is becoming more transactional. That's just a fact. So. Mm-hmm. Um, that's the, the anchoring in relevance. And then the last one, the R stands for reinforcing stability. Um, so I think this is a really, really critical and sometimes, um, underrated part of an internal comms person's job. It's, is how can we actually create pockets of stability for employees? How can we be a buoy for them in a storm? You know, how can we create that moment, even if it's small, that moment that gives them a little bit of autonomy, a little bit of control. Over a situation that, um, otherwise might have felt completely out of their control. Um, and that can be really powerful in helping to get them on side. So, um. You know, I think at the, at the conference I used the example of a lot of return to work mandates that are coming in and businesses for whatever reason, like, you know, that's a, it's a reasonable thing to ask people to do, but it comes with a lot of emotion because we feel very protective of our right to work flexibly, specifically here in Australia. Um, so if that's something you are doing in your business, how can you talk about the other things that aren't changing, you know? Mm-hmm. We are still allowing you to pick your start and end times. We're still open to having conversations about individual flexibility plans. We're still doing X, Y, Z. Um, it might seem like obvious stuff, but you know, you do have to say things over and over to people to remind them what they are still getting and what's not changing. So I think that's something that we really need to be focusing on as comms professionals and that business leaders need to make sure that they're also factoring into their change communication as well. Yeah. And I'm, I was so glad when you said that because uh, it's something I do bang on about a bit. And listeners on this podcast will know, um, any of my clients will know. You have to talk about what's not changing, not just what is changing. And part of that, as I talk, we talked about is the overwhelm when there's so much going on, people just need something to anchor to that is staying the same sometimes, and it's because we love the status quo. Status quo is comfortable, and there's that whole idea of, you know, prospect theory where even if the change could be better for us, if there's a risk attached to it or an unknown... we're still more likely to not go for that change because we want, we will prioritise a safe bet over something that has a little bit of unknown, but it could be better for us, which is, you know, human beings. We're just, we are interesting like that. Yeah. Um, you did touch a little bit on this, but what are some of the external factors that we need to keep in mind with change? Mm. I think there's so many, um. The one that I hear a lot from people that I interview, um, is different departments not talking to each other. Mm-hmm. So people in operations are pulling together an amazing change plan. They've put a lot of thought and effort into it. They're about to hit go, and they found out that day IT is rolling out a new system and we haven't been talking to each other because there, there's often a lack of that central figure that brings people together. Um, and I think internal comms or comms in general is, um, can be that person can be that person that sees the bigger picture and kind of helps people to prioritise. So I think understanding what's going on in the rest of the business is one, I think, um... thinking about organisational energy levels, you know, are you about to launch a business critical change at a time at the end of the financial year and people are just feeling spent and don't have a lot of capacity, like just doing a bit of a sense check of where people are. There's a bunch of frameworks that people can use to, you know, do that at a team level, um, potentially, 'cause different teams will have different, um, experiences and have different, I guess, appetite. For change and, um, abilities to take it on. Mm-hmm. Um, and thinking about, you know, business critical times, you know, I mentioned the end of financial year. It'd be a terrible idea to roll out a change for your finance team around the end of financial year because they need to be focusing on other things. Um, your sales team, you know, don't bother them too much if they have crazy KPIs to meet and they are trying to hustle on them and get to them at the final hour. Like don't ask them to do a piece of training that's not critical at that moment because they just need to be able to kind of keep their eyes on the target. So thinking about how we can keep the rhythms of business moving along, um, not put any of our business critical outcomes at risk, but also, you know, bring the change in when you know, the critical change when, um, people are gonna be most receptive to it. Yeah, I think that's a really great list and um, I really like that, you know, you reiterated. That role that internal comms plays. I know, you know, when I was in internal comms, in in-house roles, we really did have that helicopter view and it was, we ended up being the people sort of going, oh, hang on, did you know that such and such in HR is also doing that? Or, and you do end up being that connector if there's no EPMO or any sort of, um, function like that, that is actually overseeing what goes on. And even when you do have any PMO, they don't know everything, so sometimes you end up informing them too. Yeah, exactly. And I, I think it's also, um, it's about we don't always value ourselves as communicators, as people that are as good at connecting. Like you think it's inherent in everybody, but it's actually a skill that is kind of sought after and not a lot of, not everyone has it, that ability to... just even ask the question of, Hey, have you talked to Jane about this yet? Yeah. Because I think Jane's doing something like people don't necessarily jump there automatically and comms experts do - 'cause we're inherently curious. Mm. Um, so I think, yeah, it's about valuing that part of our skill set as well. Now, speaking of curious, I have one final question for you on this topic, and it's about AI because it is a big part of our worlds now. It's becoming bigger, it's only gonna get bigger. What are some of the ways you are seeing organisations adapt AI to support change in communication? I think the AI question for me is more about how, how businesses are talking about ai because I think in some ways it's work, in some respects it's working against them. So, um, in Covid, we think about how businesses were addressing their workforce. It was really about, um, what do you guys think? We want you to help us come up with better ways to work. Help us think about how to connect you and bring our culture alive in a virtual environment. Come up with all these cool ideas. And so, you know, people were feeling very consulted. They were feeling really informed. They, their ideas were getting action pretty quickly.'cause we had to work in this very agile manner. Then, you know, fast forward to the start of chat GPT I mean, I know AI is much bigger than that, but people always go to chat GPT; this comes on the scene and there's a period of time where employees tune pretty quickly change. They're like, oh, cool. We have this tool now. This tool's gonna be everything we need to help us, you know, reach our pretty lofty growth goals and, um, streamline everything and blah, blah, blah. But then again, to go back to Gartner, you look at their, um, research and they're kind of what they call the AI hype cycle. Um, and it suggests that we're still two to five years away from this technology actually delivering those gains that business leaders are kind of pinning a lot of hopes onto. Um, and so the risk there is you've got this organisational apathy running through your organisation. You've told employees, Hey, we don't need you 'cause we've got ai, which isn't what you said. That might be what they heard. Um, and you know, things are gonna fall through the cracks. So, um, I don't think. Again, like there, there will be some businesses that are using AI really effectively. I think it's still quite early days, and I think we're still figuring out that relationship between human and robot. That's very true. Absolutely. Kate, thank you for all those insights. I've got three questions I ask every guest on the podcast. Are you ready for those? Uh, sure. Go for it. Well, let's do it. What's one of the best communication lessons you've ever learned, and how did it change the way you approach communication? I love this question. Um, so a guy called Dom Price, who works at Atlassian said this to me and someone said this to him. So this is third hand advice, but, um, now fourth hand, fifth hand, and people pass it on. But that's how advice works. Um, it's, you've got two ears and one mouth for a reason. So listen more than you talk, it's the best way to kind of deeply understand the challenge you're trying to solve, um, all the communication approach that you should take. And so for me, when I heard him say that, I was like, absolutely. And so I now, I mean, I've been talking a lot in this podcast, but you know, if we were just having a regular chat, um, I would try and listen and ask questions more than I speak because I think that's where the gold lies, and that's where the, you know, you have to sometimes listen for what's not said to, to get to the root of a problem. And certainly in your role as essentially a journalist, um, you, that's critical, isn't it? You have to, you have to listen to understand and to ask good questions. Thank you for that. Next question, what's one thing you wish people would do more of or less of when communicating? I think in the context of what we spoke about today, I think, um... probably the stability piece to giving equal weight. When you're talking about in the context of change, give equal weight to what's changing and what's not changing, and make that a 50 50 so that it's a constant reminder for you, um, to, of its importance and of the, the value that that will have when you are trying to make change happen. Hmm. I love it. And final question, and in your role, you get to talk to so many amazing practitioners across hr, comms change all the lot, but who do you turn to for communication advice? Who do I turn to for communication advice? Um, I've mentioned Gartner a lot, but that's more for insight advice. But there is, um, a guy at Gartner called Aaron McEwen, who I would recommend everyone follow on LinkedIn. He's great. He posts a lot of really interesting insights. So he's someone I would go to for insights, um, communication advice, uh. Shelley Johnson is, um, a host of a podcast called This Is Work, and she is, um, a founder of a consultancy called Bald Side. I think she's an excellent communicator. Um, if you think about communicating through social channels and digital, she is, um, you probably, you probably know her, Mel, she kind of, yeah, I follow her on uh, Instagram. Yeah. Yeah, she communicates really complex stuff really quickly and easily and in video format, and that is the future of communications. People do not have attention spans for anything more than that, and I think she's a master at what she does, so she's someone I would turn to to think about how to get a message across quickly and effectively. Love it. Okay. Thank you so much for your time today. If people want to connect with you, find out more about you, what's the best way to reach you? I am on LinkedIn all the time, so connect with me on LinkedIn. I would love the opportunity to hear how change is going on in your business, and if you've got, um, you know, interesting case studies and stories, reach out and we can, we can chat about how to tell more people about it. Brilliant, and we'll put a link in the show notes to Kate's LinkedIn profile and to that slide that she mentioned as well. Kate, thank you so much for being on Less Chatter, More Matter.