Less Chatter, More Matter: The Communications Podcast

#92 How we can leverage political communications techniques in our communications (ft. David Imber)

• Mel Loy • Season 1 • Episode 92

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Elections are at the top of our mind right now, regardless of where you are around the globe. In fact, there are at least 64 countries around the world that are holding elections this year… plus the European Union. 

Most notably, we’re all sitting on the edge of our seats watching the votes trickle in from the US election and wondering what that may mean for the rest of the world in the coming years… so, with all of this in mind, we got wondering: what kind of comms is at play in elections and big political pieces, and more importantly, what could we learn from them?

Which is why we’ve got the incredible David Imber on this week’s episode of the Less Chatter, More Matter podcast to talk us through all things political comms and what we can take and apply to other areas of comms across the board. 

So, if you’re keen to get the inside scoop on election tactics, including what Kamala Harris and Donald Trump have been doing comms-wise, you should listen in!

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Mel:

Elections are all the rage in 2024. You might even be heading off to the polls yourself, or maybe you voted already. If you are, you're joining almost half the population of the entire planet who will vote in an election this year. There are at least 64 countries plus the European Union who have held or will hold elections. In Queensland, where I'm from, we just had our state election, which has seen a change in government. But on the world stage, we are of course all watching the USA. The outcome of that race will have far reaching consequences. From a communications perspective, it is a fascinating time because there is so much we can observe and learn from political communication. Which is why I wanted to chat with the very smart, very awesome David Imber. David is principal at David Imber Advisory, a corporate public affairs and communications advisory firm where David specialises in advising on issues and crisis management, strategic communications, and external relations. He's also a non executive board director and is the current immediate past president of the IABC Victoria chapter. David came to communications through policy roles, having studied arts law at Monash University. He started professional life at the ATO, the Australian Tax Office, and then worked in policy at the Victorian WorkCover Authority before working in the office of the Minister for WorkCover, the Honorable Rob Hulls, as a departmental liaison officer. He's since worked in the not for profit sector, including co founding the Australians for Affordable Housing campaign. He's worked as an Account Director at Essential Media Communications and was a Government Relations Manager at Telstra, Australia's biggest telecomms agency. David's last employed role was Director of Public Affairs at the Victorian Department of Education and Training. Now, since 2019, David has been consulting in media relations and strategic communications and increasingly in issues and crisis management. And if you're in Australia, maybe you've heard him talking on the ABC on a regular segment called Spin Doctors. David enjoys working with others to solve complex problems, usually those involved in critical business or organisational priorities that require high level communications and stakeholder engagement. He has advised ministers, departmental executives, and their staff on crisis and issues management, government relations, internal and external comms. And he's regularly engaged as a trusted advisor by chairs and CEOs in the corporate and not for profit sectors. David's other board roles are as a non executive director at the Holmes Glenn Institute of TAFE. Now, in this conversation, David and I cover everything from the mechanisms of political communication to leadership communication lessons, and even how AI is starting to make an impact in election communications. I absolutely love this chat with David. We could have talked for hours, but I think you'll really enjoy this chat too. So without further ado, let's get into it. Here's David. Hi, David. Welcome to the show.

David:

Thanks Mel, great to be with you.

Mel:

I am super excited to have you here, but before we get into today's topic, can you tell us a little bit about you? What do you do and how did you come to develop your expertise in that space?

David:

Sure. So I have come to communications really in a roundabout way. Um, I've joked to friends that my career does not make sense, linear way. Uh, it's really that I've taken the best opportunities that I could at the time. So I studied a law degree. Thought I was going to work in government in policy roles, and that's what I started doing. I was really keen, uh, to, you know, be a policy person. And then, uh, through an experience I had being a department liaison officer for a minister. Um, I really saw politics up close. I'd always been involved in politics in my personal time. Um, I'd got involved in student affairs at university. And was interested in politics that way, but it was the first time I really had the chance to see it up close and all the fun people that were coming to the minister's office were the ones that were lobbying and often they were from the not for profit sector. So I went and worked in the NGO sector. And my first job there included communications. So I had comms as part of my remit, uh, in that job, uh, I was sort of comms and, and policy. And ever since then, that's 2004. Ever since then, I've really had communications roles and I love the buzz. I love the energy. I love the dynamism and the chance you have to make a difference a bit more immediately than, You know, working for six months on a policy proposal that might take another six months to go through government, uh, you know, comms, you can really, you know, do things quite quickly. So that's a little bit about my background. What I do now is I've got a mixture of retained clients and project clients, and I work principally in issues management. I do do crisis management, but it's a lot of issues management. Organisations come to me with problems, um, often where there's risk of media or public disclosure, and I help them strategically manage those issues and give them advice around communications. And I do some media relations and strategic communications work really across corporate, some government agencies and not for profits.

Mel:

Awesome. And I know you also had a bit of experience with Penny Wong's, uh, campaign back in the day. Can you tell us a bit about that?

David:

Uh, you might be referring to the photo of me and Penny Wong.

Mel:

I am.

David:

Look, I walked on her campaign. She actually came and visited the local campaign. So I live in St Kilda. I now live in St Kilda, but I was living nearby. in Melbourne and Penny actually came to Josh Burns campaign, the McNamara campaign, and she was calling local constituents and there's a photo I'm very proud of because obviously Penny Wong's pretty amazing, of me next to Penny, but no, that was a local campaign. She'd come to our community and, and it's a classic really of how, you know, leaders in politics really have to be great communicators. I mean, she's a senator for South Australia, she's actually kind of a more of a shy person. And yep, she's making phone calls for a local MP, cause, you know. She's not going to be a minister if he didn't make it. And he did.

Mel:

Brilliant. And for those of you who are listening who don't know too, she's also Australia's foreign minister. Um, so she's, she's smashing goals everywhere she goes. We love Penny. So let's get into today's episode, which is all about political communication. So We have a lot of elections going on around the world this year. So with your political communication background, just generally, can you give us a bit of a sense of what's involved behind the scenes when your communication has to align to a specific ideology or a set of issues?

David:

Absolutely. So it's elections are really like, you know, major campaigns. But, you know, a political campaign, you know, really is quite a complex piece of work, involving all sorts of people from, you know, writers, digital, um, you know, social these days, especially paid advertising above the line, below the line, stakeholder engagement, field work. So, you know, the people who work in politics, they've got a team, you know, their colours are nailed to the mast. I think what you're talking about in terms of, you know, how does the rest of the world deal with it, you know, in terms of, um, uh, of, of an election, it's really interesting. A lot of, uh, not for profits particularly, but also lots of businesses try and influence elections because it's a really key moment. You know, in democracies where if you can get a commitment pre election, um, then that gives you, you know, the ability to have your policy, um, you know, or, you know, your local swimming pool or whatever you want funded, uh, to come through. So, uh, being aware about politics and understanding it allows you to advise your organisation about what is our opportunity in this election campaign.

Mel:

That's exactly right. And I think too, with the Queensland election just passed, so it is fresh in my mind too, is some of those issues that came up towards the end that I think probably did sway the vote back towards Labor a bit more than the Liberals anticipated. Like the abortion issue, for example, that sort of came up in the last week or so, where, , the then opposition leader, now the premier, couldn't give a straight answer on that question.

David:

And exactly. And that's where, you know, that's where political communications, I think, has so many lessons for comms people. Because, you know, we're often, I know, you know, a lot of people do employee engagement, internal comms who listen to your podcast. You know, there's a lot of stuff we do to prepare those leaders, you know, FAQs and running through rehearsals. But usually they've got some ability to manage that, you know, they're not really going to be put on the spot in the same way as, you know, um, a leader in a political campaign is. But the abortion issue was a classic one. The leader probably had a view that was more moderate than people in his party. And he couldn't quite say... either his view or the less moderate view because he was trying, you know, to be everything to everybody. And that's generally not an easy place to be.

Mel:

Yeah. So it's, it's, it's one of these things that just, again, from a comms perspective, fascinating to watch. Um, so let's talk about communication in the context of election seasons. What makes it so unique? What makes that kind of communication so different from like issues management, crisis comms, internal comms, corporate comms in general? What makes it so unique?

David:

Um, there's a few things. I think, for me, an election campaign is the classic mix of internal, external communications and marketing. So, you know, there is political communication every day of the week. Without an election, you know, there's pretty much a journalist stationed with the leader every day. There's always a story. But we know that most people live their lives and aren't watching the news every day whereas a political campaign, it's like a football finals season. It's very condensed, it's very high stakes, um, and it really brings three or four years of, um, you know, work together in three or four or five weeks. And so you've got that pressure. And when I said internal, external, um, and marketing. You know, there are three components I think are important. So with any political communications, you've got your own people. So members of your political party or people who almost always vote for your political party, often called your base. That's internal comms. So, you know, you see a lot of what Kamala Harris is doing is talking to Democrats. You know, that's almost internal comms, sort of inside the Beltway. Then you've got talking to persuadable people. That's external comms. They're people who may or may not vote for you. Um, and you know, you've got to have something to say to them that matters. And marketing is that classic, you want the sale and the sale is, put a one in the box, for, uh, you know, your candidate or your party. And so, you know, what makes election season different to regular, day of the week comms is the pressure. Um, and is really the distillation, um, of three or four years of work plus a scheduled, usually 35 to 40 day campaign period. So. You're being assessed a little bit on what you've done in the last three or four years and what you promise to do in the future. Yeah.

Mel:

So on that, you know, whether it's from what's happening in Australia this year or the US election or any other election we've seen this year, are you seeing any trends coming through? And if anything, has, has anything surprised you?

David:

Um, look, I have. I mean, I think one of the biggest case studies in really the power of social and digital media and campaigning was the switch between Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. I thought it was amazing and still I'm really surprised at how that campaign was able to turn from, you know, a quite old man to, , a younger woman. I mean, she's not that young, she's 60. Um, but really leaning into quite young language and memes. Um, I thought that was quite amazing. And to me, that is the future of campaigning is to be very agile and to be a little bit less polished, uh, to, to really sort of lean in to the zeitgeist. So I think that's a bit of a trend. Technology is a huge trend. Um, it is amazing the extent to which. Uh, targeting, uh, can occur now and the way in which, you know, we're not all having the same conversation because we're not all watching the nightly news or reading the same newspaper. Um, there is, uh, a bit of evidence coming out that Elon Musk is really, really hot. Pushing the dial on X so that Republican voices have a stronger, um, you know, stronger point of view and stronger cut through on that platform, which he owns because he's obviously decided to support Donald Trump. So, you know, you see even the sort of town squares that, you know, Twitter actually used to be a fairly progressive place and Twitter is now X and it's a very, um, you know, right wing place. So those trends in technology and the power of technology, um, I think is huge. Uh, the gender voting gap is significant. Um, we're really, you know, you brought up abortion in the Queensland election context. Uh, but I don't think I've seen in my lifetime, the extent to which men and women are seeing politics differently. And I think women are really voting on their politics quite substantially. And that is supporting really progressive side of politics. We're now seeing women really, you know, not just in Australia, not just in the US, but really across the world. We're seeing women supporting more progressive parties, and we're seeing men supporting more conservative parties. That gap. Um, uh, is growing, and I think that has, you know, severe implications for, you know, gender relations and how we see the world.

Mel:

I was even just thinking about, um, well, a couple things. A, as you say, that ability to target. I mean, that speaks to everything comms now, isn't it? You have to know data. You have to know how to, you know, access it, mine it, make it meaningful because there is so much of it, A. Um, but B, you know, it's about personalising that message to that audience. And it's really hard to do that. There's no one size fits all is one of the things I always, you know, bang on about with comms. Uh, but we've got all that data at our fingertips, which political parties are obviously mining to their advantage as well.

David:

Yeah. There's a lot of money in politics and it's really difficult because they are doing, you know, there's always, multiple campaigns going at once. Um, it's serious money and, uh, you know, it's, it's just upping the stakes, on what they can do.

Mel:

The price of democracy.

David:

I know. And it's problematic. And I mean, this is the citizens united decision in the high court, uh, the Supreme court, I should say for the U S a few years ago that really allowed this money to flow. It is damaging. Um, you shouldn't have to be rich to run. And thankfully in Australia, it's not quite like that, but it's still expensive to run a campaign in Australia. I think there's a lot that, you know, is really important for communications professionals to look at about things like the gender voting gap. I'm a bit unusual in communications being a man. It is, you know, a profession that, you know, predominantly has women in it. And I think that's fantastic. And women, you know, I'm pleased to see women asserting their voice and, really trying to even the score in society. And, you know, why are we fighting for abortion and why are we having to fight for these issues? But the flip side of that is understanding. that it can be genuinely difficult to see the other side of you. And if we're a predominantly female industry now, you know, thinking about the fact that, you know, men and women might be moving apart and the way in which we communicate in the workplace or in other places, we might need to think about how we do that and, you know, what that looks like. And those are the sorts of trends that you can see in politics that can come into communications.

Mel:

That's exactly right. It's really interesting. I was, um, I was reading some stats a little while ago about, uh, I think it was probably US based, but it was around, um, I actually think it might've been the Edelman barometer. And they were talking about, you know, how likely would you be to, to help somebody who was from a different political party than you and, you know, that sort of thing and um, there are people in the workplace who would not... talk to other people in the workplace if they were on a different party line, which is, you know, it's one of those places you almost think is sacrosanct. It's, it should be a neutral, a Switzerland, you know, you come to work, you're all there for a similar purpose, but it does seem to be spilling over into those other contexts. And I guess that links me to my, my next question, which is, what are some of the lessons we can take from this election season, this political communication, election communication, that we could be applying to professional comms more broadly. And we've talked about data, but what else could we be taking from it?

David:

Look I think, I think, you know, what you were just saying was absolutely critical. There is a risk of polarisation in the community coming into the workplace. And, you know, thankfully in Australia, we're not at the extent, but, you know, we would have Australian businesses now where, you know, the people who are in, North Queensland or out of, you know, WA would have a different view to the Melbourne and Sydney head office more likely because of where those people come from. So the implications that has for internal comms and for the job of communications is really important. And I think we have to make space for difference, and really Uh, try harder and do better at creating opportunities for people to genuinely see themselves, um, and, and to sign up of the vision of the organisation or the business that they're a part of. So that's one of the key lessons for me is, you know, what you see in politics, you, is a reflection of society. And so I think in the workplace, , we really need to be mindful of... that polarisation and how you can deal with them. And I think, you know, the best people in communications, um, use data, do surveys, focus groups, listen, um, really do the work, and then, uh, you know, produce thoughtful communications that doesn't just reflect their own internal bias in politics.

Mel:

Hmm. What do you think about companies who do take a political stance? So, you know, sometimes you've got CEOs who are quite outspoken, who on particular issues, not necessarily party lines, but often particular issues, or you know, there is some close tie between CEO Joe blogs and, you know, prime minister blogs. Is there a space for CEOs and C suite leaders to have those kind of, I guess, very strongly held opinions when you're talking in this context of, you know, we have very geographically dispersed audiences now within the business as well. And to your point about values, you know, if they, are they aligning with their values, if they have those stances, do you think there's a still a balance that's allowed there, what could that look like?

David:

That is a really interesting question and a really challenging one, because I think traditionally we've, we've had this idea that, um, our leaders can sort of opt out of politics, but that's never really been the case. I think there's a difference that I would say between having a view on an issue. and having a view on politics. Um, and I think it's, uh, the experience in Australia of the voice referendum, I think is going to make a lot of businesses very worried and probably has already about how they make a point of view. because unlike marriage equality, where lots of companies had a view on marriage equality and then we got marriage equality, a lot of companies had a view on the voice in support and then we didn't have a voice. And so it's very different when you back a campaign that wins, you can be like, you know, we were sort of on the right side of that. When you back a campaign that loses, um, you know, the responsibility really is to have that clear conversation about why you're doing it. And I think on the voice, A lot of businesses didn't have the conversations down the line about why they were doing it. And that created, um, you know, really a bit of a gap between management and the people. I think most businesses are pretty cautious about jumping in. Um, but I would say you can't avoid being involved in issues, but they should be really wary. Connected to who you are and what you're about. And I think for a lot of people, um, there was a confusion. And, and I know on The Voice there was a confusion about, you know, why are we involved. I think Telstra actually gave a great example after The Voice where the chairman of Telstra said, We operate in Aboriginal communities every day. Our infrastructure is on Aboriginal land and, you know, we deal and supply Aboriginal people. We made a view that it was in the interest of our customers and our stakeholders to do that. That's great. They were able to make that link. It is, you know, Um, really important to be able to sort of explain what you're doing, um, and recognise that these days with polarisation, not everybody in a business is going to agree.

Mel:

I love that. I, it does bring me back to, I guess, a question around, um, I was just thinking, it needs to make sense that you have the view that you do. So if I'm running a, you know, a horticulture business, then yes, I might have a view on climate change because that's going to impact the environment. So to me, that it's about does it make sense to actually have that view, but recognising people in your audience will.

David:

It's true. And what is it often actually quite different is now because we have less lifelong employment and people move around, um, and we have a lot more focus on personal brand and platforms like LinkedIn, where people display their personal brand. What I find is very interesting, you probably notice this too, you're on LinkedIn a bit. Um, I find really interesting when people on LinkedIn, you know, put personal views up. And I respect that. But if they're leaders, then their people are also seeing that. That's where things can get really tricky. Um, and I think, you know, there's a generational divide in terms of personal brand and what's appropriate and having views. And I think that's, you know, only going to continue to play out.

Mel:

Yeah. That's interesting but again, it comes back to that core communication tenant of tailor to your audience. Like if they're the people we're trying to reach.

David:

And that's exactly right. I mean, you know, it's so clear this gender gap, you know, Kamala, you know, she had Kelly Rowland, Beyonce, like talking about women's right to choose. And you've got Trump going on Joe Rogan, bro press, you know, they are clearly targeting their group now. Um, you know, for both of them it makes sense, but it's a kind of a problem for the country and for the world. You know, I find that, the consequences of some of that stuff, um, challenging. But it also, from a comms perspective, it makes perfect sense. Part of Donald Trump's problem, but also sadly some of his appeal is he is, you know, really unique in the sense that. He breaks the rules of comms all the time. He speaks for too long. He speaks off message. He's offensive. He lies. Um, and you know, he has possibly more than half of the voting population will support him. So it's very, um, it's very challenging to, to watch him because on the one hand, you know, personal view, I think he's completely offensive. On the other hand, he's actually an amazing communicator despite breaking all the rules of comms.

Mel:

Yeah, I absolutely agree. I can't, I can't watch it for too long cause I just get angry, but, um, I think what works in his favor is he's very concrete. In the way he talks, even if it's an untruth, because he says it so concretely and so confidently, it compels people. And I think that's a lesson that any leader can learn, not lying, but just being more concrete, being more confident in what you're saying. And so often I see with leaders, , they put a lot of fluffy words around things. They're very vague because they're worried about saying the wrong thing or, you know, that timeline for that project might blow out. So we're just going to say, we anticipate this project will end sometime in the next 12 months. That doesn't inspire confidence in anybody.

David:

It's just so true, you know, in the fullness of time, in due course, all these weasel word phrases. I think this is why, you know, when I advise clients at the moment, I really talk to them about framing their issues and framing their issues in terms of values, rather than being as traditionally concerned about key messages. If you frame an issue and you say, these are my values, this is what we're trying to do. Our intention is to do this, but you know, keep it real.

Mel:

Yeah, things might change.

David:

Yeah. I really want this done by September. It's possible it's going to slip.

Mel:

And if that's the case, yeah,

David:

so I think, you know, whereas this sort of messaging box that was very tight, um, you know, I don't think that works quite as well.

Mel:

I agree. Now I have one last question. I know we've gone a bit over time, but I've just one thing I wanted to, we can talk for hours about this, but; AI in political communication, you know, we're seeing deep fakes, we're seeing all sorts of things coming out of that world. What do you think is going to be the impact of AI? And are we doing enough to kind of counter some of those potential risks?

David:

Look, it's huge. And no, I don't think we're doing enough. I think, um, uh, regulation tends to kind of follow technology rather than lead it. And I think what we're saying is, you know, AI has moved quicker than technology has been able to, uh, to deal with it. Um, and I think some of the biggest users of AI in politics really are, you know, nefarious foreign actors. There is no doubt that both China and Russia have been trying to influence elections in Western democracies and you know, probably North Korea and probably other countries too and their use of technology. I think, um, you know, one of the truths of politics is that, and one of the truths of communications, is that people are most likely to be persuaded by people they know and people they trust and see. That's why you still see people door knocking, because actually seeing somebody and having a conversation is very powerful. Um, but yeah, I, I think, I think technology is a great enabler, we should lean into it. Um, communications professionals should be all over it.

Mel:

And I think it's about how do we make sure we educate people along the way, particularly in this political season, you know, what to look out for, what to, what to be aware of. Um, especially, you know, you say people who we like and know and trust that we tend to listen to, you know, auntie Maeve's sharing something on Facebook that's clearly false and clearly an AI generated something to be able to recognise that too

David:

and reach out. Yeah, absolutely.

Mel:

Poor old auntie Maeve. Okay. So thank you so much. I really enjoyed that chat. I have three questions that I ask every guest on the podcast. You ready for those?

David:

Yes.

Mel:

Let's do it. What is one of the best communication lessons you've ever learned, and how did it change the way you approach communication?

David:

Um, this is, uh, I did enjoy this question, thinking about it, um, it was actually to take a breath.

Mel:

Hmm.

David:

Uh, when I was a lot younger, starting in comms, you know, I've got a lot of energy and I kind of was even worse and I was like, let's get on, let's move, particularly if you work in media relations, you know, you're on deadline and I was always really quick and, um, and one of my, uh, you know, early bosses and mentors, uh, sat me down and said, take a breath, A breath is going to give you the time to just think about the next move. And as I have, you know, um, advanced in my career, there's often been times where I've taken more than a breath and I've gone, you know what, we might miss that media cycle. And that's okay because we're a big enough newsmaker. If my client's a big enough newsmaker, we'll do something in the next media cycle. We'll do something differently. And I think that's the benefit of experience. And I really appreciated, just the experience of being told to just take a breath. Don't just run at the problem.

Mel:

I love that. It's something I've, I've struggled with my entire life. Part of that's ADHD. You know, new shiny thing. Let's go. Uh, but also for me, it was about having the right people around me too. You know, it takes having that mixture of people on a team who can, somebody who can tap you on the shoulder and go, yeah, that's a great idea, but let's just. Think about that for a second,

David:

look at it from a few angles, literally a breath is, you know, a second, but you know, it's, sometimes it's really important to watch and you say really good communicators, um, you know, don't, don't feel rushed into things and they can set the play a bit.

Mel:

That's awesome. Next question. What's one thing you wish people would do more of or less of when communicating?

David:

Keeping it real, more of, you know, it's really awkward when you see people and it's kind of now a cliche, particularly when footballers make a mistake, they get the piece of paper and they're reading it. It's like, I'm sorry, I've let the boys down. And it's like, this is the most inauthentic piece of communication. You know, they haven't written it. You don't even really know if they believe it or think it or know what's going on. Um, and while that's a terrible example, I'm sorry to sports people. But that is a classic example of people in our profession going, we need to see an apology in tomorrow's paper or, you know, TV, and I'm going to force somebody to do it. But it actually, you know, I think is corrosive to the brand because you don't even know what they're thinking. Better to say, I mean, I would love somebody to say it, Um, I'm 18 and I stuffed up, you know, and, and, and use their language to say whatever they want to say. You know, I've apologised to the boys, I've done this, I've done that, um, rather than read out something that, you know, some comms professional wrote. So much, uh, more of keeping it real. Um, and I think much less of that kind of, um, hard gatekeeper comms. that is, you know, a little bit, um, impenetrable, weasel words, um, you know, all of that stuff, it's, it's corrosive to trust.

Mel:

Mm. Yeah. I love that. Get rid of the buzzwords, get rid of the jargon. I'm done with corporate speak at the moment.

David:

And, you know, I appear on ABC radio every now and then doing a segment called Spin Doctors. And we talk about, you know, issues and who's sort of won and lost. And some of the talkback callers, like, people get when they're being spun to. And I think it's our job as communicators to tell our clients and our bosses, Um, honestly, this is what you've got to do. You know, you've got to say this straight.

Mel:

Everyone has a bullshit radar. Last question for you, David, who do you turn to for communication advice?

David:

Look, I do turn to my colleagues and I have a few trusted colleagues that I give a phone call to um, but I'll be honest and it's an advertisement, you know, it's how I, how I met you. The industry association that we're a part of, the International Association of Business Communicators, I read their stuff, I turn up at events, I've gone to world conference a few times, um, I've gone to regional conference, I'll be going to the next one in Manila. So, you know, being part of an industry association, a professional association, um, and, you know, having the opportunity to hear from speakers and panels, that's, really who, , I learn from, because a lot of what we're doing, we're in our own domain with our clients or whoever we're dealing with, um, and, you know, these are great opportunities to learn from people within the profession.

Mel:

Yeah, I absolutely agree. And I think too, as a small business owner, you know, somebody's not surrounded by a team all day, every day. Um, it's so important for me to get out of that bubble and learn from what's going on, not just in the rest of Australia, but the rest of the world as well. And that to me is what, one of the biggest benefits of being part of IABC has been is I've got a network now that's global. That I can reach out to, which, you know, would not have happened otherwise.

David:

It's true, and to be involved in a group that really has excellence and ethics and it's core, you know, that gives me the confidence that, you know, something somebody's gonna share is gonna have some value.

Mel:

Yeah, totally agree. Well, David, I have loved our chat this morning. If people want to find out more about you or reach out to you, what's the best way to do that?

David:

Uh, you can find me on LinkedIn. You can go to imberadvisory. com, um, and, uh, yeah, join the IABC if you're in Victoria. I certainly hope to see you at IABC events, uh, in, uh Melbourne - But yeah, generally find me on LinkedIn. Would love to hear from people and, you know, always, uh, always up to learn new ideas and have chats. And of course I'm a consultant Mel, so, you know, if anyone wants to hire me, they're welcome.

Mel:

We'll put the link in the show notes.

David:

You are too kind. And thank you for what you do. You know, you really invest in this podcast and in your communications to our sector and our profession. And I really value it. So thank you for the work you've done.

Mel:

Oh, my pleasure. I love it. Thanks so much for coming on the show, David.

David:

Pleasure.